On Mar 16, 4:05 am, wrote:

[...]

So which spewing moron did we lose such that we get Marcel to take his
place?

On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula? The Polasek way is wrong, because it
is based on T = h/c, whereas the light signal travelled a distance
h.

Marcel Luttgens

Tom Roberts

wrote:
On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula? The Polasek way is wrong, because it
is based on T = h/c, whereas the light signal travelled a distance
h.

Why are you asking him? It isn't his formula - it is yours.

The question to be asked is why did you use it if you don't understand
it?


Marcel Luttgens

Tom Roberts

wrote in message oups.com...
On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula?

Ah, come on.
Pulse is emitted with frequency nu.
In floor's instantaneous inertial frame, velocity of floor when
pulse is emitted = 0.
Time for pulse to go from ceiling to floor: t = h/c.
During that time the floor increases velocity to v = g t = g h/c
as seen in original frame.
Since v is very small, you can use the classical doppler effect
to calculate the observed frequency
nu' =~ nu ( 1 - v/c ) = nu ( 1 - (g h/c)/c ) = nu ( 1 - g h/c^2 )

I'm sure you'll find that in every low level introduction.

Dirk Vdm

On Mar 17, 1:37 pm, "Eric Gisse" wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula? The Polasek way is wrong, because it
is based on T = h/c, whereas the light signal travelled a distance
h.

Why are you asking him? It isn't his formula - it is yours.

The question to be asked is why did you use it if you don't understand
it?

Can't you read?

I said:

"For the elevator *at rest* on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2,
where g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom."

And I clearly asked for the derivation of the formula giving the shift
for the accelerating elevator.

Marcel Luttgens




Marcel Luttgens

Tom Roberts

On Mar 17, 2:11 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" dirkvandemoor...@ThankS-NO-
SperM.hotmail.com wrote:
wrote in ooglegroups.com...
On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula?

Ah, come on.
Pulse is emitted with frequency nu.
In floor's instantaneous inertial frame, velocity of floor when
pulse is emitted = 0.

Yes.

Time for pulse to go from ceiling to floor: t = h/c.
During that time the floor increases velocity to v = g t = g h/c
as seen in original frame.

After the pulse is emitted, the floor moves upwards, hence
the pulse will hit the floor after a time t h/c.

Since v is very small, you can use the classical doppler effect
to calculate the observed frequency
nu' =~ nu ( 1 - v/c ) = nu ( 1 - (g h/c)/c ) = nu ( 1 - g h/c^2 )

And the shift would be, according to you, nu'/nu - 1 = -g h/c^2,
which is a redshift!

Marcel Luttgens

I'm sure you'll find that in every low level introduction.

Dirk Vdm

wrote in message ps.com...
On Mar 17, 2:11 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" dirkvandemoor...@ThankS-NO-
SperM.hotmail.com wrote:
wrote in ooglegroups.com...
On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula?

Ah, come on.
Pulse is emitted with frequency nu.
In floor's instantaneous inertial frame, velocity of floor when
pulse is emitted = 0.

Yes.

Time for pulse to go from ceiling to floor: t = h/c.
During that time the floor increases velocity to v = g t = g h/c
as seen in original frame.

After the pulse is emitted, the floor moves upwards, hence
the pulse will hit the floor after a time t h/c.

Since v is very small, you can use the classical doppler effect
to calculate the observed frequency
nu' =~ nu ( 1 - v/c ) = nu ( 1 - (g h/c)/c ) = nu ( 1 - g h/c^2 )

And the shift would be, according to you, nu'/nu - 1 = -g h/c^2,
which is a redshift!

The velocity v is measured negative downward, moron.
Shouldn't you first tackle the physics they teach to 12 years
old kids, imbecile?

Dirk Vdm

Dirk Van de moortel a écrit :
The velocity v is measured negative downward, moron.
Shouldn't you first tackle the physics they teach to 12 years
old kids, imbecile?

This is Androcles' syndrome #213 : "-x is always negative because their
is a minus signe in front of x".

On Mar 17, 3:42 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" dirkvandemoor...@ThankS-NO-
SperM.hotmail.com wrote:
wrote in glegroups.com...
On Mar 17, 2:11 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" dirkvandemoor...@ThankS-NO-
SperM.hotmail.com wrote:
wrote in ooglegroups.com...
On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula?

Ah, come on.
Pulse is emitted with frequency nu.
In floor's instantaneous inertial frame, velocity of floor when
pulse is emitted = 0.

Yes.

Time for pulse to go from ceiling to floor: t = h/c.
During that time the floor increases velocity to v = g t = g h/c
as seen in original frame.

After the pulse is emitted, the floor moves upwards, hence
the pulse will hit the floor after a time t h/c.

Since v is very small, you can use the classical doppler effect
to calculate the observed frequency
nu' =~ nu ( 1 - v/c ) = nu ( 1 - (g h/c)/c ) = nu ( 1 - g h/c^2 )

And the shift would be, according to you, nu'/nu - 1 = -g h/c^2,
which is a redshift!

The velocity v is measured negative downward, moron.

Idiot, the elevator is accelerating upward !

Marcel Luttgens

Shouldn't you first tackle the physics they teach to 12 years
old kids, imbecile?

Dirk Vdm

wrote in message oups.com...
On Mar 17, 3:42 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" dirkvandemoor...@ThankS-NO-
SperM.hotmail.com wrote:
wrote in glegroups.com...
On Mar 17, 2:11 pm, "Dirk Van de moortel" dirkvandemoor...@ThankS-NO-
SperM.hotmail.com wrote:
wrote in ooglegroups.com...
On Mar 16, 6:25 pm, Tom Roberts wrote:
wrote:
For the elevator at rest on Earth, the blue shift is ~ gh/c^2, where
g is ~ 9.8 m/s^2 and h is the distance top-bottom.

You are claiming that the wavelength are also shifted in the case
of the accelerated elevator, because when the light was emitted
at the ceiling, the floor had a smaller velocity than when the light
was received. Indeed, the craft is accelerating and therefore the
floor changed its velocity during the time of flight of the light.

Correct (velocities measured wrt some appropriate inertial frame).

You are in fact implying that the velocity of light is *not*
independent
of the motion of its source or of the motion of the observer!

Well, sort of. Remember that in SR the constancy of c holds only in
inertial frames, and the elevator is not inertial. In this case, an
INERTIAL observer outside the elevator would measure c for the speed of
the light inside the elevator, but an accelerated observer inside the
elevator would not. Indeed, it is this fact that permits one to compute
the blueshift.

And what is the formula for your alledged shift?

~ gh/c^2 of course (using the same approximation you used above).

How did you derive that formula?

Ah, come on.
Pulse is emitted with frequency nu.
In floor's instantaneous inertial frame, velocity of floor when
pulse is emitted = 0.

Yes.

Time for pulse to go from ceiling to floor: t = h/c.
During that time the floor increases velocity to v = g t = g h/c
as seen in original frame.

After the pulse is emitted, the floor moves upwards, hence
the pulse will hit the floor after a time t h/c.

Since v is very small, you can use the classical doppler effect
to calculate the observed frequency
nu' =~ nu ( 1 - v/c ) = nu ( 1 - (g h/c)/c ) = nu ( 1 - g h/c^2 )

And the shift would be, according to you, nu'/nu - 1 = -g h/c^2,
which is a redshift!

The velocity v is measured negative downward, moron.

Idiot, the elevator is accelerating upward !

Yes, congratulations.
The light is going downward.

Shouldn't you first tackle the physics they teach to 12 years old
kids, reatrd?

Dirk Vdm