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#61
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In sci.physics.relativity, Eric Gisse
wrote on 24 Nov 2006 15:31:12 -0800 om: Henri Wilson wrote: [snippage] The H&K is a joke....like all of relativity.. So you have no actual objections to the H&K experiment, you just don't like what would happen if the Earth suddenly stopped rotating? Fortunately for you, the H&K experiment started with the Earth rotating and ended with the Earth rotating. And fortunately for all of mankind, the oceans, and every living thing thereon, I don't think it stopped anytime during the experiment, either. :-) Approximate moment of Earth: 2/5 M r^2 = 9.724 * 10^37 kg-m^2 Rotational speed: 2*Pi/86400 = 7.2722 * 10^-5 rad/sec Rotational Energy: 1/2 I omega^2 = 2.571 * 10^29 J Ocean volume: 1.370 * 10^18 m^3 (source: Encarta) Water specific heat: 4186 J kg^-1 K^-1 Estimated ocean temperature rise: 44.8 million degrees Temperature of Sun: 5800 K Estimated effect on indigenous life forms on Earth: YEEEEEEEOWWWWWWWWW..... [more snippage] -- #191, Warning: This encrypted signature is a dangerous munition. Please notify the US government immediately upon reception. 0000 0000 0000 0000 0001 0000 0000 0000 ... -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message ... On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:21:01 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: [Henri Wilson] IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? [Norman Bates] Henri, I keep telling you that the speed of the planes change if the earth stops. They go from flying at different speeds to flying at the same speed and that's why the clocks will read the same. Can't you understand that? Don't be daft.... Duh... okay. Use satellites outside the earth's atmosphere. Same experiment..... How can you say same experiment when you want to use satellites? Stick to the planes. If the Earth's rotation speed changes, how do the clocks 'know' how much to vary their rates? Because if the speed of the earth's rotation changes, the speeds of the planes change in relation to the centre of earth. The speed of the earth's rotation is a factor in the speed of the planes, when the planes are moving in opposite directions along the equator. Please tell me that you can understand that. A clock at the north pole will run faster in relation to one at the equator, (ignore any gravitational effects). The H&K is a joke....like all of relativity.. Too bad you weren't around when Einstein was here, you could have saved him a lot of unnecessary work. HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG. |
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On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:11:19 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote:
"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message .. . On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:21:01 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: [Henri Wilson] IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? [Norman Bates] Henri, I keep telling you that the speed of the planes change if the earth stops. They go from flying at different speeds to flying at the same speed and that's why the clocks will read the same. Can't you understand that? Don't be daft.... Duh... okay. Use satellites outside the earth's atmosphere. Same experiment..... How can you say same experiment when you want to use satellites? Stick to the planes. If the Earth's rotation speed changes, how do the clocks 'know' how much to vary their rates? Because if the speed of the earth's rotation changes, the speeds of the planes change in relation to the centre of earth. The speed of the earth's rotation is a factor in the speed of the planes, when the planes are moving in opposite directions along the equator. Please tell me that you can understand that. A clock at the north pole will run faster in relation to one at the equator, (ignore any gravitational effects). You simply don't get it do you. If the Earth's rotation rate changes, the clocks in the satellites cannot possibly be affected. They will continue on the merry way, which, according to you lot, would make them read differently when reunited. If the Earth stopped rotating immediately the satellites were placed in orbit, the clocks SHOUD read the SAME when reunited. Can you not see the contradiction. It is very obvious. The H&K is a joke....like all of relativity.. Too bad you weren't around when Einstein was here, you could have saved him a lot of unnecessary work. If Eiinstein were alive today and capable of posting messages here he would be shot down in flames every time. HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG. |
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Henri Wilson wrote: On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:11:19 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: "Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message .. . On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:21:01 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: [Henri Wilson] IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? [Norman Bates] Henri, I keep telling you that the speed of the planes change if the earth stops. They go from flying at different speeds to flying at the same speed and that's why the clocks will read the same. Can't you understand that? Don't be daft.... Duh... okay. Use satellites outside the earth's atmosphere. Same experiment..... How can you say same experiment when you want to use satellites? Stick to the planes. If the Earth's rotation speed changes, how do the clocks 'know' how much to vary their rates? Because if the speed of the earth's rotation changes, the speeds of the planes change in relation to the centre of earth. The speed of the earth's rotation is a factor in the speed of the planes, when the planes are moving in opposite directions along the equator. Please tell me that you can understand that. A clock at the north pole will run faster in relation to one at the equator, (ignore any gravitational effects). You simply don't get it do you. Arguing about relativity again, Henri? Remember all those times you told me you neither understand or want to understand relativity? If the Earth's rotation rate changes, the clocks in the satellites cannot possibly be affected. They will continue on the merry way, which, according to you lot, would make them read differently when reunited. You just love to make **** up, don't you? If there is no angular velocity, the situation will be symmetric and the planes will read exactly the same. Or satellites, or whatever. It is obvious not only from an intuitive standpoint, but obvious from the time dilation equation for that setup. I have no idea how you can **** up something so simple so often. If the Earth stopped rotating immediately the satellites were placed in orbit, the clocks SHOUD read the SAME when reunited. Since you don't understand relativity, I am unsure why you are so certain of this even though it is true. Can you not see the contradiction. It is very obvious. The H&K is a joke....like all of relativity.. Too bad you weren't around when Einstein was here, you could have saved him a lot of unnecessary work. If Eiinstein were alive today and capable of posting messages here he would be shot down in flames every time. That is because the people who would be flaming him [like yourself] are morons who have no education in the subjects they rant about. HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG. |
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#65
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"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:11:19 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: "Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message . .. On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 10:21:01 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: [Henri Wilson] IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? [Norman Bates] Henri, I keep telling you that the speed of the planes change if the earth stops. They go from flying at different speeds to flying at the same speed and that's why the clocks will read the same. Can't you understand that? Don't be daft.... Duh... okay. Use satellites outside the earth's atmosphere. Same experiment..... How can you say same experiment when you want to use satellites? Stick to the planes. If the Earth's rotation speed changes, how do the clocks 'know' how much to vary their rates? Because if the speed of the earth's rotation changes, the speeds of the planes change in relation to the centre of earth. The speed of the earth's rotation is a factor in the speed of the planes, when the planes are moving in opposite directions along the equator. Please tell me that you can understand that. A clock at the north pole will run faster in relation to one at the equator, (ignore any gravitational effects). You simply don't get it do you. If the Earth's rotation rate changes, the clocks in the satellites cannot possibly be affected. They will continue on the merry way, which, according to you lot, would make them read differently when reunited. If the Earth stopped rotating immediately the satellites were placed in orbit, the clocks SHOUD read the SAME when reunited. Can you not see the contradiction. It is very obvious. Henri, you keep jumping to satellites, does that mean that you agree with me on the planes thing? Are you saying I'm right about the planes, but it doesn't apply to satellites? The H&K experiment was done with planes, not satellites, so I'm not going to bring satellites into this argument. Just tell me if you agree that the speed of the planes will change in relation to the centre of the earth, if the earth stops rotating. I know you can see that and that is what caused the difference in the clocks in the H&K experiment and later experiments which were more accurate. The H&K is a joke....like all of relativity.. Too bad you weren't around when Einstein was here, you could have saved him a lot of unnecessary work. If Eiinstein were alive today and capable of posting messages here he would be shot down in flames every time. HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG. |
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#66
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Henri Wilson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:55:09 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment] You don't have to go to all this trouble. As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth from rotating. Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited. I would like your answer the question at the end of this posting. Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36). Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis (the pitch axis). The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and returning to the same point one sidereal day later. Case 1: The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth. How many rotations are measured by the gyros in the East- and West going plane respectively? (The obvious answer is: 2 and 0) Case 2: The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth. How many rotations are measured by the gyros in the East- and West going plane respectively? (The obvious answer is: 1 and 1) Now the question I would like you to answer: Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros? THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION. We are talking about clock rates. You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read differently when reunited. I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory). But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they obviously should NOT read differently when reunited. Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object. So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros? No answer, Henri? We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros. Doesn't matter. Same problem. They are both instruments inside the planes. So we could make the question more general: Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect instruments inside the plane? How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating? How is it that the gyros in my thought experiment would miraculously know how to change the rotation if the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating? The answer should be obvious, Henri. And the answer is the same whether we are talking about clocks or gyros. I will give you a hint: What is it the gyros measure? Why are the results different in case 1 and 2? What is the relevance of the Earth? Paul, as usual you run away from the real topic and stall for time by talking about something entirely irrelevant. IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? THIS SHOWS HOW NOINSENSICAL THE H&K REALLY IS. WOULDN'T YOU AGREE? IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE GYROS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR MEASUREMENTS SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? Why don't you answer? Is it because you can't, or is it because you don't like the answer you would have to give? Paul |
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On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:28:53 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:55:09 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment] You don't have to go to all this trouble. As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth from rotating. Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited. I would like your answer the question at the end of this posting. Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36). Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis (the pitch axis). The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and returning to the same point one sidereal day later. Case 1: The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth. How many rotations are measured by the gyros in the East- and West going plane respectively? (The obvious answer is: 2 and 0) Case 2: The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth. How many rotations are measured by the gyros in the East- and West going plane respectively? (The obvious answer is: 1 and 1) Now the question I would like you to answer: Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros? THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION. We are talking about clock rates. You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read differently when reunited. I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory). But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they obviously should NOT read differently when reunited. Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object. So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros? No answer, Henri? We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros. Doesn't matter. Same problem. They are both instruments inside the planes. So we could make the question more general: Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect instruments inside the plane? How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating? How is it that the gyros in my thought experiment would miraculously know how to change the rotation if the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating? The answer should be obvious, Henri. And the answer is the same whether we are talking about clocks or gyros. I will give you a hint: What is it the gyros measure? Why are the results different in case 1 and 2? What is the relevance of the Earth? Paul, as usual you run away from the real topic and stall for time by talking about something entirely irrelevant. IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? THIS SHOWS HOW NOINSENSICAL THE H&K REALLY IS. WOULDN'T YOU AGREE? IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE GYROS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR MEASUREMENTS SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? Why don't you answer? Because the question is completely irrelevant. Is it because you can't, or is it because you don't like the answer you would have to give? I will answer you. The gyros will tell each plane when it has done a complete 360 turn. It makes no difference whether the Earth stops spinning or not. Paul HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG. |
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On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 08:11:13 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote:
"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message .. . On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:11:19 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: If the Earth stopped rotating immediately the satellites were placed in orbit, the clocks SHOUD read the SAME when reunited. Can you not see the contradiction. It is very obvious. Henri, you keep jumping to satellites, does that mean that you agree with me on the planes thing? Are you saying I'm right about the planes, but it doesn't apply to satellites? The H&K experiment was done with planes, not satellites, so I'm not going to bring satellites into this argument. Just tell me if you agree that the speed of the planes will change in relation to the centre of the earth, if the earth stops rotating. I know you can see that and that is what caused the difference in the clocks in the H&K experiment and later experiments which were more accurate. The same experiment can be carried out using satellites orbiting in the equatorial plane. Try thinking about it. GR says the clock going in one direction will appear to run at a different rate from the one going in the opposite direction. ..because the Earth is rotating and each one's speed wrt the ground observer is different. Therefore, when the clocks are reunited, their readings will be different. This means that immediately after launch, the clocks must be running at different rates relative to each other. If the Earth stops rotating after launch, why should that difference suddenly disappear...which is what GR says SHOULD happen? HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG. |
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"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message ... On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 08:11:13 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: "Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message . .. On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 09:11:19 +0200, "Norman Bates" wrote: If the Earth stopped rotating immediately the satellites were placed in orbit, the clocks SHOUD read the SAME when reunited. Can you not see the contradiction. It is very obvious. Henri, you keep jumping to satellites, does that mean that you agree with me on the planes thing? Are you saying I'm right about the planes, but it doesn't apply to satellites? The H&K experiment was done with planes, not satellites, so I'm not going to bring satellites into this argument. Just tell me if you agree that the speed of the planes will change in relation to the centre of the earth, if the earth stops rotating. I know you can see that and that is what caused the difference in the clocks in the H&K experiment and later experiments which were more accurate. The same experiment can be carried out using satellites orbiting in the equatorial plane. Try thinking about it. GR says the clock going in one direction will appear to run at a different rate from the one going in the opposite direction. ..because the Earth is rotating and each one's speed wrt the ground observer is different. Therefore, when the clocks are reunited, their readings will be different. This means that immediately after launch, the clocks must be running at different rates relative to each other. If the Earth stops rotating after launch, why should that difference suddenly disappear...which is what GR says SHOULD happen? I can see that you agree with me now on the H&K experiment with the planes. I don't want to get into a discussion on satillites, because H&K had nothing to do with satillites. HW. www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG. |
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Henri Wilson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:28:53 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:55:09 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen" wrote: Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment] You don't have to go to all this trouble. As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth from rotating. Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited. I would like your answer the question at the end of this posting. Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36). Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis (the pitch axis). The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and returning to the same point one sidereal day later. Case 1: The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth. How many rotations are measured by the gyros in the East- and West going plane respectively? (The obvious answer is: 2 and 0) Case 2: The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth. How many rotations are measured by the gyros in the East- and West going plane respectively? (The obvious answer is: 1 and 1) Now the question I would like you to answer: Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros? THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION. We are talking about clock rates. You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read differently when reunited. I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory). But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they obviously should NOT read differently when reunited. Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object. So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros? No answer, Henri? We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros. Doesn't matter. Same problem. They are both instruments inside the planes. So we could make the question more general: Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will affect instruments inside the plane? How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating? How is it that the gyros in my thought experiment would miraculously know how to change the rotation if the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating? The answer should be obvious, Henri. And the answer is the same whether we are talking about clocks or gyros. I will give you a hint: What is it the gyros measure? Why are the results different in case 1 and 2? What is the relevance of the Earth? Paul, as usual you run away from the real topic and stall for time by talking about something entirely irrelevant. IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? THIS SHOWS HOW NOINSENSICAL THE H&K REALLY IS. WOULDN'T YOU AGREE? IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE GYROS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR MEASUREMENTS SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED? Why don't you answer? Because the question is completely irrelevant. Is it because you can't, or is it because you don't like the answer you would have to give? I will answer you. The gyros will tell each plane when it has done a complete 360 turn. It makes no difference whether the Earth stops spinning or not. Of course. That is indeed the obvious answer. The gyros and the clocks give different results in the two scenarios, because the _planes_ move in two very different ways in the two scenarios. As you so correctly point out, it does not matter if the Earth is spinning or not. So the answers to your question: " IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED?" and my question: "IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE GYROS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR MEASUREMENTS SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN REUNITED?" are exactly the same: The clocks or the gyros don't have to know anything about the rotation of the Earth because it does not affect them in any way, it is the pathes of the planes through space and time that determine what the instruments will show at the end of their journey. In case 1, one plane is stationary in a non rotating frame, while the other plane is moving twice around a circle at the speed 3340 km/h. In case 2, both planes are moving in opposite directions once around a circle at the same speed 1670 km/h. "It makes no difference whether the Earth stops spinning or not." Remember that for the future. Case closed. Paul |
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