Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]
You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.
I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object.

So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect
an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of
the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

Paul

"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 07:46:39 +0200, "Norman Bates"
wrote:


"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message




HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.

[Norman Bates]
Henri, when you stop the earth's rotation, doesn't the speed of the
aeroplanes change dramatically in relation to the centre of the earth?
Say
plane 'E' flies east at 350 mph, plane 'W' flies west at 350 mph. Say
the
earth is rotating at 1000 mph. In relation to the centre of the earth,
plane E is flying at 1350 mph (1000 mph rotation of the earth velocity
plus
350 mph ground velocity, both eastbound). Plane W, in relation to the
centre of the earth, would be flying at 650 mph (1000-350). So if E is
flying at 650 mph and W is flying at 1350 mph and if the earth stops
rotating, their speeds will change (in relation to the centre of the
earth)
so that they are flying at the same speed and therefore their clocks
will
now read the same time when reunited.

That's my point.

Obviously changing the Earth's rotation AFTER the planes were in the sky
would
have no effect on the clocks. So why shouldn't they continue on as H&K
said
they should.

[Norman Bates]
You can't argue that the surface of
the earth should be the inertial frame instead of the centre of the
earth,
because your whole argument hangs on the fact that you are going to stop
the
earth rotating.

Forget the planes. Let's do it with satellites so the atmosphere is not
a
factor.
The point I'm making is that obserevr behavior cannot affect the object
under
observation.
Stopping the Earth cannot effect the (remote) clocks.
So why should they not continue to show the 'claimed' difference when
reunited.

Are you suggesting the clock rates magically change IN RELATION TO EACH
OTHER,
just because the Earth stops?

[Norman Bates]
If you don't mind, I would like to stick with the planes example for now,
Henri. I am saying that when the earth stops rotating, even after the
planes are in the sky, the speed of the planes relative to the centre of
the
earth change dramatically. From my example, plane E goes from flying at
650
mph to 350 mph and plane W's speed changes from flying at 1350 mph to
flying at 350 mph when the earth stops rotating in relation to the centre
of
the earth. So they go from flying at different speeds to flying at the
same
speed in relation to the centre of the earth and therefore their clocks
will
now read the same time when reunited. There is no magic, just simple
arithmetic. Its like you and I are running on conveyor belt you are
running
in the same direction as the conveyor is moving and I am running in the
opposite direction and you are covering more distance, being aided by the
conveyor and I am covering less distance and then the conveyor stops...

I know relativists are incapable of thinking but surely you cannot be this
bloody stupid.

tell me you're joking....



HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.



HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.

Yeah, Henri, sure.

Norman Bates wrote:
The Hafele-Keating experiment was riddled with controversy.

Not really. Mr. Kelley completely misinterpreted it due to his personal
lack of understanding of both the experiment and of basic statistics,
and got it published in a journal without adequate peer review. His
confusions have been magnified, in the manner of the Internet, into a
"controversy" where none really exists.


Hafele and
Keating didn't give the actual test results in their paper; they gave
figures that were radically altered.

No, they gave values analyzed in accordance with generally accepted
methods for such data. shrug


See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele-Keating_experiment

In the manner of wikipedia, this article contains numerous errors and
half-truths. Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source of information. shrug


Tom Roberts

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]
You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.
I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object.

So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect
an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of
the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros.

How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if
the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating?


Paul


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.

"Tom Roberts" wrote in message t...
| Norman Bates wrote:
| The Hafele-Keating experiment was riddled with controversy.
|
| Not really.

Yes really. Your bigotry is only too obvious, Roberts. shrug

Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]
You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.
I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object.

So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect
an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of
the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros.

How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if
the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating?

The Earth was rotating in the H&K experiment, Henri.



Paul


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]

You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.

I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior
cannot affect an observed object.

Andersen resolves SR's postulates with telekinesis so
there is absolutly no reason he can't affect clocks
as well. Now stop picking on him or he
might look at your house and set it ablaze. )

Links irrelevant to H&K but relevant to SR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_impedance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_space
http://www.conformity.com/0102reflectionsfig3.gif
http://www.conformity.com/0102reflections.html
"Retarded potential"
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teachin...es/node50.html

Sue...

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching.html
http://web.mit.edu/8.02t/www/802TEAL...ight/index.htm




Paul


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]
You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.
I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?
THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object.

So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect
an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of
the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

No answer, Henri?

We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros.

Doesn't matter. Same problem.
They are both instruments inside the planes.

So we could make the question more general:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will
affect instruments inside the plane?

How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if
the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating?

How is it that the gyros in my thought experiment would miraculously
know how to change the rotation if the (remote) Earth suddenly
stopped rotating?

The answer should be obvious, Henri.
And the answer is the same whether we are talking
about clocks or gyros.

I will give you a hint:
What is it the gyros measure?
Why are the results different in case 1 and 2?
What is the relevance of the Earth?

Paul

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:55:09 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]
You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.
I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?
THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object.

So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect
an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of
the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

No answer, Henri?

We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros.

Doesn't matter. Same problem.
They are both instruments inside the planes.

So we could make the question more general:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will
affect instruments inside the plane?

How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if
the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating?

How is it that the gyros in my thought experiment would miraculously
know how to change the rotation if the (remote) Earth suddenly
stopped rotating?

The answer should be obvious, Henri.
And the answer is the same whether we are talking
about clocks or gyros.

I will give you a hint:
What is it the gyros measure?
Why are the results different in case 1 and 2?
What is the relevance of the Earth?

Paul, as usual you run away from the real topic and stall for time by talking
about something entirely irrelevant.

IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE
CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN
REUNITED?

THIS SHOWS HOW NOINSENSICAL THE H&K REALLY IS.

WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?



Paul


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:55:09 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:45:34 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:40:24 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote: [about the H&K experiment]
You don't have to go to all this trouble.
As soon as the planes carrying the clocks are in the air, just stop the Earth
from rotating.
Somehow, relativists will claim that this action will affect the now remote
clocks. They will now read the same time when reunited.
I would like your answer the question at the end
of this posting.

Two supersonic planes are flying in opposite directions
around the Earth along equator. The ground speed is
one Earth circumference per sidereal day (ca. 1670 km/h, MACH 1.36).
Each plane is carrying a ring laser gyro detecting
the rotation around an axis parallel to the Earth axis
(the pitch axis).
The planes are starting at a point at the Earth, and
returning to the same point one sidereal day later.

Case 1:
The experiment is performed on the rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 2 and 0)

Case 2:
The experiment is performed on a non-rotating Earth.
How many rotations are measured by the gyros in
the East- and West going plane respectively?
(The obvious answer is: 1 and 1)

Now the question I would like you to answer:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth
somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?
THIS HAS NOUGHT TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.

We are talking about clock rates.

You people claim the two clocks will run at different rates and will read
differently when reunited.

I'm telling you that if the Earth stops rotating as soon as the clocks are in
the air, their relative rates cannot possibly be affected and they should still
read differently when reunited (according to your silly theory).

But, since their whole trip is carried out when the Earth is NOT rotating, they
obviously should NOT read differently when reunited.

Even YOU should know that observer behavior cannot affect an observed object.

So considering that observer behaviour cannot affect
an observed object, do you claim that the rotation of
the Earth somehow will affect remote ring laser gyros?

No answer, Henri?

We're talking about clocks, not ring gyros.

Doesn't matter. Same problem.
They are both instruments inside the planes.

So we could make the question more general:
Do you claim that the rotation of the Earth somehow will
affect instruments inside the plane?

How is it that the H&K clocks would miraculously know how to change rates if
the (remote) Earth suddenly stopped rotating?

How is it that the gyros in my thought experiment would miraculously
know how to change the rotation if the (remote) Earth suddenly
stopped rotating?

The answer should be obvious, Henri.
And the answer is the same whether we are talking
about clocks or gyros.

I will give you a hint:
What is it the gyros measure?
Why are the results different in case 1 and 2?
What is the relevance of the Earth?

Paul, as usual you run away from the real topic and stall for time by talking
about something entirely irrelevant.

*snicker*

I think this should be the operating definition of hypocracy.


IF THE EARTH STOPS ROTATING AS SOON AS THE PLANES ARE IN THE AIR, HOW DO THE
CLOCKS 'KNOW' HOW TO ADJUST THEIR RATES SO THEY WILL NOW READ THE SAME WHEN
REUNITED?

"wow! if I make relativity sound stupid, it is just like I proved
relativity wrong!"


THIS SHOWS HOW NOINSENSICAL THE H&K REALLY IS.

Hafele and Keating is an EXPERIMENT that existed in real life. Your
"experiment" is a nonsensical through experiment whose only result is
highlighting the fantastic ignorance of its' creator.


WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?

Why would he? All you are doing is attempting to phrase relativity in a
stupid way even though you have no concept of what relativity is or
what it predicts.

Your attempts to invalidate an experiment you disagree with is childish
and transparent. The Earth, believe it or not, did not stop rotating in
the H&K experiment. Stop pretending it did.




Paul


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Thank christ there is one genuine physicist on the NG.