Consider a laser that is emitting pulses of light from each end.
One would have to conclude that these were separating from each other at a
speed of 2c.
Now replace one laser beam with a series of electrons traveling at 0.9999c wrt
the laser.
One would have to conclude that the laser pulses were separating from the
electrons at ~2c.

Next, replace the electron beam with two pions beams, one traveling at 0.5c wrt
the laser and the other at 0.9999c.
Let the pions decay and emit a gamma particle in the direction of the laser.

Question: What is the speed of the gamma particles wrt the laser pulses?



HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Henri Wilson wrote:
Consider a laser that is emitting pulses of light from each end.
One would have to conclude that these were separating from each other at a
speed of 2c.
Now replace one laser beam with a series of electrons traveling at 0.9999c wrt
the laser.

0.9999c? Why do YOU, of all people, seem to accept the existence
of a "speed limit"?

Why not use electrons traveling at 2c with respect to the laser?

Oh, yeah, you postulate the existence of some sort of retrograde
force operating on charged particles, forget what you call it...

OK, how about a 2c neutral pion beam, that mostly decays into
gamma ray photons?

Jerry

On 27 Mar 2006 23:54:04 -0800, "Jerry" wrote:

Henri Wilson wrote:
Consider a laser that is emitting pulses of light from each end.
One would have to conclude that these were separating from each other at a
speed of 2c.
Now replace one laser beam with a series of electrons traveling at 0.9999c wrt
the laser.

0.9999c? Why do YOU, of all people, seem to accept the existence
of a "speed limit"?

There IS a limit to how fast a beam of charged particles can be accelerated by
an electric field.


Why not use electrons traveling at 2c with respect to the laser?

Because some argumentative fool like you would complain that it can't be done.

Oh, yeah, you postulate the existence of some sort of retrograde
force operating on charged particles, forget what you call it...

Are you refering to Wilson's 'reverse field bubble'?

OK, how about a 2c neutral pion beam, that mostly decays into
gamma ray photons?

Now how about concentrating on the question instead of wasting my valuable
time...


Jerry


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message
news
Consider a laser that is emitting pulses of light from each end.
One would have to conclude that these were separating from each other
at a
speed of 2c.

Why?


Now replace one laser beam with a series of electrons traveling at
0.9999c wrt
the laser.
One would have to conclude that the laser pulses were separating from
the
electrons at ~2c.

Why?

Henri Wilson wrote:
Consider a laser that is emitting pulses of light from each end.
One would have to conclude that these were separating from each other at a
speed of 2c.

Yes.

Why doesn't this violate SR? Because "separation rate" is
not the measured velocity of anything, according to anybody.

Now replace one laser beam with a series of electrons traveling at 0.9999c wrt
the laser.
One would have to conclude that the laser pulses were separating from the
electrons at ~2c.

Also correct.

Next, replace the electron beam with two pions beams, one traveling at 0.5c wrt
the laser and the other at 0.9999c.

Also correct.

Let the pions decay and emit a gamma particle in the direction of the laser.

Question: What is the speed of the gamma particles wrt the laser pulses?

As gammas are photons, the speed is c. According to
the lab observer who has been measuring all of this,
the separation rate of the gammas from your original
laser pulses is either 0 or 2c.

However, "speed wrt" implies the view of some other
observer, and an observer riding along with laser pulses
is not an allowed point of view in SR.

Up to the point where you used that [deliberately?]
ambiguous terminology, everything was from
the point of view of a single observer and no transformations
were involved since there is only one frame of reference.

- Randy

There is no answer to the question "What is the speed of ______ [fill
in the blank with anything] with respect to laser pulses?" because
there is not a legitimate frame of reference for light. It's possible
that you knew this and posed the question anyway because you need to
publicly demonstrate that you're a jackass. It's also possible that,
despite being told many times, you still didn't didn't know it because
you are extremely stupid and incapable of learning anything.

Paul Cardinale

"AllYou!" wrote in message et...

"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message
news
Consider a laser that is emitting pulses of light from each end.
One would have to conclude that these were separating from each other
at a
speed of 2c.

Why?

Express c in meter/second.

After 1 second the distance between the signals
as seen by you is:
d(1) = 2 c seconds.
After 2 seconds the distance between the signals
as seen by you is:
d(2) = 4 c seconds.
....
After t seconds the distance between the signals
as seen by you is:
d(t) = 2 t c seconds.

Define this distance by t seconds and you get a
"closing speed between the signals" of
d(t) / (t seconds) = 2 c.


Now replace one laser beam with a series of electrons traveling at
0.9999c wrt
the laser.
One would have to conclude that the laser pulses were separating from
the
electrons at ~2c.

Why?

Same as before.
Look up "closing speed", or "third party speed", or
"speed relative to".

Dirk Vdm

Henri Wilson wrote:
[snip]
Now how about concentrating on the question instead of wasting my valuable
time...

When do you plan to do something that will make your time valuable?
Socks

On 28 Mar 2006 05:38:25 -0800, "Paul Cardinale"
wrote:

There is no answer to the question "What is the speed of ______ [fill
in the blank with anything] with respect to laser pulses?" because
there is not a legitimate frame of reference for light.


But there can be an FoR for an electron traveling at 0.9999999999999c ?

It's possible
that you knew this and posed the question anyway because you need to
publicly demonstrate that you're a jackass. It's also possible that,
despite being told many times, you still didn't didn't know it because
you are extremely stupid and incapable of learning anything.

Seto is often wrong but he is definitely right about you.


Paul Cardinale


HW.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

"Henri Wilson" HW@.. wrote in message ...
On 28 Mar 2006 05:18:20 -0800, "Randy Poe" wrote:


Henri Wilson wrote:
Consider a laser that is emitting pulses of light from each end.
One would have to conclude that these were separating from each other at a
speed of 2c.

Yes.

Why doesn't this violate SR? Because "separation rate" is
not the measured velocity of anything, according to anybody.

Now replace one laser beam with a series of electrons traveling at 0.9999c wrt
the laser.
One would have to conclude that the laser pulses were separating from the
electrons at ~2c.

Also correct.

Next, replace the electron beam with two pions beams, one traveling at 0.5c wrt
the laser and the other at 0.9999c.

Also correct.

Let the pions decay and emit a gamma particle in the direction of the laser.

Question: What is the speed of the gamma particles wrt the laser pulses?

As gammas are photons, the speed is c. According to
the lab observer who has been measuring all of this,
the separation rate of the gammas from your original
laser pulses is either 0 or 2c.

So what does that make the speed of the gammas wrt the pions?


However, "speed wrt" implies the view of some other
observer, and an observer riding along with laser pulses
is not an allowed point of view in SR.

I don't think you know what you are talking about Randy.
SR clearly breaks down when it considers 3rd observers.

No, Rabbidge, you break down when it comes to understanding
the difference between speed and closing speed and. That has
been established since at least 5 years now, remember?

Dirk Vdm