"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message
news:9emdnbOUJrKTMDTenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@wtccommunica tions.ca...

SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

Suppose I am sitting in the centre of a stationary spaceship. When I look
at the front of the spaceship, its image will travel towards me at c.

Similarly, when I look at the back of the spaceship, its image will travel
towards me at c, but in the opposite direction.

When a stationary observer outside the spaceship looks at me, he will also
see both the internal front image of the spaceship, as well as the
internal
rear image of the spaceship travel towards me at c. In other words light
travels at c in all directions inside the spaceship, as observed by me and
the outside observer.

Next let us suppose that the spaceship passes the stationary earth-bound
observer by at a velocity of v miles per hour.

For me inside the spaceship, the image of the front of the spaceship and
the
rear of the spaceship will still travel towards me at c. That is to say,
light continues to travel at c in all directions inside the spaceship in
relation to the spaceship, whether it is in motion or not.

But what does the stationary observer on earth see?
As far as he is concerned, the image of the (interior) front of the
spaceship will now travel towards me at (c-v), whereas the image of the of
the rear of the spaceship will travel towards me at (c+v).

It should be noted however that the relative speed between the observed
images remains 2c. That is to say, the relative speed at which the
interior
rear and front image of the spaceship travel towards each other remains:
(c-v) + (c+v) = 2c.

In summary:
Due to the internal EFOR (Electromagnetic Field Of Reference) of the
spaceship, light continues to travel at c in relation to the spaceship,
whether it is in motion or not.

However to the stationary observer on earth, the speed at which light
travels inside the moving spaceship is (c+v) while traveling towards the
front, and (c-v) while traveling towards the back of the spacecraft.

For a more detailed explanation, see the second of my 'Selected Papers'
titled: 'Frames of Reference', which you will find at my website at:
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek

Enjoy, Len.
.................................................. .....

Re "For a more detailed explanation, see the second of my 'Selected Papers'
titled: 'Frames of Reference', []":

In your first scenario there are two parties. So, either can be the FoR, and
regardless the same speed will be observed - in so far as an observer of
just one moving body can have a concept of speed.

In your second scenario there are three parties. If you are going to make
.... if relationships between the two scenarios are going to effect then it
will be on some common ground. The choice of common ground - the choice of
FoR - is either the light or the spaceship - if one is coherent.

The alternative is something such as this:
http://groups.google.ie/group/sci.ph...9e1b8f83006f3a

If you agree, perhaps you should link to it from your front page - that
might help undo the mess the SRians are.

Peter Kinane
http://www.effectuationism.com

"Peter Kinane" wrote in message
...

"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message
news:9emdnbOUJrKTMDTenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@wtccommunica tions.ca...

SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

Suppose I am sitting in the centre of a stationary spaceship. When I
look
at the front of the spaceship, its image will travel towards me at c.

Similarly, when I look at the back of the spaceship, its image will
travel
towards me at c, but in the opposite direction.

When a stationary observer outside the spaceship looks at me, he will
also
see both the internal front image of the spaceship, as well as the
internal
rear image of the spaceship travel towards me at c. In other words
light
travels at c in all directions inside the spaceship, as observed by me
and
the outside observer.

Next let us suppose that the spaceship passes the stationary earth-bound
observer by at a velocity of v miles per hour.

For me inside the spaceship, the image of the front of the spaceship and
the
rear of the spaceship will still travel towards me at c. That is to
say,
light continues to travel at c in all directions inside the spaceship in
relation to the spaceship, whether it is in motion or not.

But what does the stationary observer on earth see?
As far as he is concerned, the image of the (interior) front of the
spaceship will now travel towards me at (c-v), whereas the image of the
of
the rear of the spaceship will travel towards me at (c+v).

It should be noted however that the relative speed between the observed
images remains 2c. That is to say, the relative speed at which the
interior
rear and front image of the spaceship travel towards each other remains:
(c-v) + (c+v) = 2c.

In summary:
Due to the internal EFOR (Electromagnetic Field Of Reference) of the
spaceship, light continues to travel at c in relation to the spaceship,
whether it is in motion or not.

However to the stationary observer on earth, the speed at which light
travels inside the moving spaceship is (c+v) while traveling towards the
front, and (c-v) while traveling towards the back of the spacecraft.

For a more detailed explanation, see the second of my 'Selected Papers'
titled: 'Frames of Reference', which you will find at my website at:
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek

Enjoy, Len.
.................................................. .....

Re "For a more detailed explanation, see the second of my 'Selected
Papers'
titled: 'Frames of Reference', []":

In your first scenario there are two parties. So, either can be the FoR,
and
regardless the same speed will be observed - in so far as an observer of
just one moving body can have a concept of speed.

In your second scenario there are three parties. If you are going to make
... if relationships between the two scenarios are going to effect then it
will be on some common ground. The choice of common ground - the choice of
FoR - is either the light or the spaceship - if one is coherent.

The alternative is something such as this:

http://groups.google.ie/group/sci.ph...9e1b8f83006f3a

If you agree, perhaps you should link to it from your front page - that
might help undo the mess the SRians are.

Peter Kinane
http://www.effectuationism.com


Developing on your scenarios, which may be reflective of Einstein's
principles:
If there is no common ground then in the first scenario, with FoR-spaceship,
light travels at c. With FoR-light, spaceship travels at c. In second
scenario, with FoR-Earth, light travels at c, and with FoR-light Earth
travels at c.

Now if light c is the common ground or FoR (FoR-c), then spaceship and Earth
have same speed.

If this is so, then where did Einstein go from here? If he makes Earth the
FoR, perhaps he then says (gedankens) that a spaceship observer - frame of
reference for light - "light travels at c in all directions", as you said.
And FoR-Earth can, given spacship v = 0, say that if it had velocity "the
image of the (interior) front of the spaceship will now travel towards me at
(c-v), whereas the image of the of the rear of the spaceship will travel
towards me at (c+v)".

As Dirk "all know [] since more than a century":
"Those are the closing speeds between light signals and an object.
Each light signal has speed c with respect to the observer on earth,
but the distances, as measured by the earth observer, between
the signals and an object or observer inside the ship, decrease or
increase at resp. rates c+v and c-v".

Perhaps Einstein then calls a new ball game, with For-Earth measuring light
= c. If he wants the spaceship to be measured at say .6c then the
FoR-spacship would need a funny clock or/and a funny rod, so as to cohere
with what FoR-Earth is measuring?

This is just a specualtion on A.E.'s fumbling, and an invitation for
comments.

Peter Kinane
http://www.effectuationism.com

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, "Peter Kinane" wrote with a time machine,

or a day late and a dollar short computer, to himself;

"Peter Kinane" wrote in message
[snip]
If there is no common ground then in the first scenario, with
FoR-spaceship,
light travels at c. With FoR-light, spaceship travels at c. In second
scenario, with FoR-Earth, light travels at c, and with FoR-light Earth
travels at c.

Now if light c is the common ground or FoR (FoR-c), then spaceship and
Earth
have same speed.

Please set your clock, then reboot your brain.


This sounds like your last 4.00 in the morning assertion to me.

pk

SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

Suppose I am sitting in the centre of a stationary spaceship. When I look
at the front of the spaceship, its image will travel towards me at c.

Similarly, when I look at the back of the spaceship, its image will travel
towards me at c, but in the opposite direction.

When a stationary observer outside the spaceship looks at me, he will also
see both the internal front image of the spaceship, as well as the internal
rear image of the spaceship travel towards me at c. In other words light
travels at c in all directions inside the spaceship, as observed by me and
the outside observer.

Next let us suppose that the spaceship passes the stationary earth-bound
observer by at a velocity of v miles per hour.

For me inside the spaceship, the image of the front of the spaceship and the
rear of the spaceship will still travel towards me at c. That is to say,
light continues to travel at c in all directions inside the spaceship in
relation to the spaceship, whether it is in motion or not.

But what does the stationary observer on earth see?
As far as he is concerned, the image of the (interior) front of the
spaceship will now travel towards me at (c-v), whereas the image of the of
the rear of the spaceship will travel towards me at (c+v).

It should be noted however that the relative speed between the observed
images remains 2c. That is to say, the relative speed at which the interior
rear and front image of the spaceship travel towards each other remains:
(c-v) + (c+v) = 2c.

In summary:
Due to the internal EFOR (Electromagnetic Field Of Reference) of the
spaceship, light continues to travel at c in relation to the spaceship,
whether it is in motion or not.

However to the stationary observer on earth, the speed at which light
travels inside the moving spaceship is (c+v) while traveling towards the
front, and (c-v) while traveling towards the back of the spacecraft.

For a more detailed explanation, see the second of my 'Selected Papers'
titled: 'Frames of Reference', which you will find at my website at:
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek

Enjoy, Len.
.................................................. ......

"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message news:9emdnbOUJrKTMDTenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@wtccommunica tions.ca...

SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

Suppose I am sitting in the centre of a stationary spaceship.

You can safely replace the word "stationary" with "inertial".

When I look
at the front of the spaceship, its image will travel towards me at c.

yes.


Similarly, when I look at the back of the spaceship, its image will travel
towards me at c, but in the opposite direction.

yes


When a stationary observer outside the spaceship looks at me, he will also
see both the internal front image of the spaceship, as well as the internal
rear image of the spaceship travel towards me at c.

Again, you can safely replace the word "stationary" with "inertial".

In other words light
travels at c in all directions inside the spaceship, as observed by me and
the outside observer.

Next let us suppose that the spaceship passes the stationary earth-bound
observer by at a velocity of v miles per hour.

For me inside the spaceship, the image of the front of the spaceship and the
rear of the spaceship will still travel towards me at c. That is to say,
light continues to travel at c in all directions inside the spaceship in
relation to the spaceship, whether it is in motion or not.

yes


But what does the stationary observer on earth see?
As far as he is concerned, the image of the (interior) front of the
spaceship will now travel towards me at (c-v), whereas the image of the of
the rear of the spaceship will travel towards me at (c+v).

Those are the closing speeds between light signals and an object.
Each light signal has speed c with respect to the observer on earth,
but the distances, as measured by the earth observer, between
the signals and an object or observer inside the ship, decrease or
increase at resp. rates c+v and c-v.


It should be noted however that the relative speed between the observed
images remains 2c.

Yes, again that is the closing speed between two light signals
each of which has speed c:
c - (-c) = 2 c

That is to say, the relative speed at which the interior
rear and front image of the spaceship travel towards each other remains:
(c-v) + (c+v) = 2c.

Yes, that is still the closing speed between ltwo light signals
(c-v) - ( -(c+v) ) = 2 c


In summary:
Due to the internal EFOR (Electromagnetic Field Of Reference) of the
spaceship, light continues to travel at c in relation to the spaceship,
whether it is in motion or not.

However to the stationary observer on earth, the speed at which light
travels inside the moving spaceship is (c+v) while traveling towards the
front, and (c-v) while traveling towards the back of the spacecraft.

No, I repeat:
Each light signal has speed c with respect to the observer on earth,
but the distances, as measured by the earth observer, between
the signals and an object ot observer inside the ship, decrease or
increase at resp. rates c+v and c-v.

We all know this since more than a century.

Dirk Vdm

"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message
news:9emdnbOUJrKTMDTenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@wtccommunica tions.ca...

SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT.

Suppose I am sitting in the centre of a stationary spaceship. When I look
at the front of the spaceship, its image will travel towards me at c.

Similarly, when I look at the back of the spaceship, its image will travel
towards me at c, but in the opposite direction.

Wow... The same things happens to this ship:
http://www.oceanvillageholidays.co.u...dingGoogle.htm

and this one:
http://www.cruisedeals.co.uk/img/ts/...msonspirit.jpg

When a stationary observer outside the spaceship looks at me, he will also
see both the internal front image of the spaceship, as well as the
internal
rear image of the spaceship travel towards me at c. In other words light
travels at c in all directions inside the spaceship, as observed by me and
the outside observer.

The outside observer sees the inside of the ship, Len?

That's clever. How does it he do it?
Like this?
http://www.hms-arethusa.co.uk/photos/dry_dock.jpg


Next let us suppose that the spaceship passes the stationary earth-bound
observer by at a velocity of v miles per hour.

What does this have to do with George Sagnac, Len?




For me inside the spaceship, the image of the front of the spaceship and
the
rear of the spaceship will still travel towards me at c. That is to say,
light continues to travel at c in all directions inside the spaceship in
relation to the spaceship, whether it is in motion or not.

What does this have to do with Sagnac, Len?


But what does the stationary observer on earth see?
As far as he is concerned, the image of the (interior) front of the
spaceship will now travel towards me at (c-v), whereas the image of the of
the rear of the spaceship will travel towards me at (c+v).

What does this have to do with George, Len?


It should be noted however that the relative speed between the observed
images remains 2c. That is to say, the relative speed at which the
interior
rear and front image of the spaceship travel towards each other remains:
(c-v) + (c+v) = 2c.

In summary:
Due to the internal EFOR (Electromagnetic Field Of Reference) of the
spaceship, light continues to travel at c in relation to the spaceship,
whether it is in motion or not.

Yeah... but... but... but...
What does this pathetic drivel have to do with Sagnac, Len?



However to the stationary observer on earth, the speed at which light
travels inside the moving spaceship is (c+v) while traveling towards the
front, and (c-v) while traveling towards the back of the spacecraft.

For a more detailed explanation, see the second of my 'Selected Papers'
titled: 'Frames of Reference', which you will find at my website at:
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek

Enjoy, Len.
.................................................. .....


I think you selected the wrong paper, Len.
Androcles.

To Androcles,

"It is the tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn't know - and
the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything."
Joyce Cary (1888-1957) British novelist.
Art and Reality.

Len.
.................................................. .

You are tragic, Gaasenbeek. You do not know what you
do not know, and are certain you know everything.

Could we have a simple explanation of the Sagnac effect
from your selected papers, or are you going to continue
bull****ting and blustering your pathetic little platitudes?
Androcles.
"Many people would sooner die than think... and they do." --- Bertrand
Russell.
"A last word, Mr. Darnay; you think I am drunk?"
"I think you have been drinking, Mr. Carton"
"Think? You know I have been drinking."
"Since I must say so, I know it."
"Then you shall likewise know why. I am a disappointed drudge,
sir. I care for no man on earth, and no man on Earth cares for me."
"Much to be regretted. You might have used your talents better."
"Maybe so, Mr. Darnay; maybe not. You do not know what it
may come to. Good night!" --Charles Dickens --"A Tale of Two Cities"

"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message
...
To Androcles,

"It is the tragedy of the world that no one knows what he doesn't know -
and
the less a man knows, the more sure he is that he knows everything."
Joyce Cary (1888-1957) British novelist.
Art and Reality.

Len.
..................................................

On Wed, "Peter Kinane" wrote with a time machine,

or a day late and a dollar short computer, to himself;

"Peter Kinane" wrote in message
[snip]
If there is no common ground then in the first scenario, with FoR-spaceship,
light travels at c. With FoR-light, spaceship travels at c. In second
scenario, with FoR-Earth, light travels at c, and with FoR-light Earth
travels at c.

Now if light c is the common ground or FoR (FoR-c), then spaceship and Earth
have same speed.

Please set your clock, then reboot your brain.

If this is so, then where did Einstein go from here? If he makes Earth the
FoR, perhaps he then says (gedankens) that a spaceship observer - frame of
reference for light - "light travels at c in all directions", as you said.
And FoR-Earth can, given spacship v = 0, say that if it had velocity "the
image of the (interior) front of the spaceship will now travel towards me at
(c-v), whereas the image of the of the rear of the spaceship will travel
towards me at (c+v)".

As Dirk "all know [] since more than a century":
"Those are the closing speeds between light signals and an object.
Each light signal has speed c with respect to the observer on earth,
but the distances, as measured by the earth observer, between
the signals and an object or observer inside the ship, decrease or
increase at resp. rates c+v and c-v".

Perhaps Einstein then calls a new ball game, with For-Earth measuring light
= c. If he wants the spaceship to be measured at say .6c then the
FoR-spacship would need a funny clock or/and a funny rod, so as to cohere
with what FoR-Earth is measuring?

This is just a specualtion on A.E.'s fumbling, and an invitation for
comments.

Peter Kinane
http://www.effectuationism.com

So the infected air has reached Ireland, egos expanding
faster than brain?

And you agree with a guy that uses a layman book
as a reference?

Are there teachers in grade school giving problems
like this to get students to think for themselves, not realizing
that is impossible for some?

Joe Fischer

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 "Peter Kinane" wrote:

"Joe Fischer" wrote:
On Wed, "Peter Kinane" wrote with a time machine,
or a day late and a dollar short computer, to himself;
Please set your clock, then reboot your brain.

This sounds like your last 4.00 in the morning assertion to me.
pk

No, it is obvious your computer clock is set to
yesterday.

Today is the 22nd where I am, and I am not
west of the international date line.

http://www.date-time.com/

Joe Fischer