Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm going
to give a qualified no:

Not if by SOL you mean the instaneous speed.

Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev

"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.

Not if by SOL you mean the instaneous speed.

SOL = sqrt(dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2)/dt.
That's instantaneous VELOCITY. Speed is the magnitude of velocity,
there is no such word as "instaneous", you are definitely not qualified.


Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev

Sure, have another drink. Cheers.
Androcles

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.


That may be, but my "no" was qualified.


Not if by SOL you mean the instaneous speed.

SOL = sqrt(dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2)/dt.
That's instantaneous VELOCITY.

Hmm.. what about sqrt(arg) suggests a direction to you?


Speed is the magnitude of velocity,
there is no such word as "instaneous",


I probably ought to get out more so I can get another "tan".



Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev


Sure, have another drink. Cheers.



Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

"shevek" wrote in message
oups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.


That may be, but my "no" was qualified.


No it wasn't. All speeds are relative.


Not if by SOL you mean the instaneous speed.

SOL = sqrt(dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2)/dt.
That's instantaneous VELOCITY.

Hmm.. what about sqrt(arg) suggests a direction to you?

That's not even a sentence. What arg are you talking about?


Speed is the magnitude of velocity,
there is no such word as "instaneous",


I probably ought to get out more so I can get another "tan".

Do so, I have no objection.


Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev


Sure, have another drink. Cheers.



Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

We call them "photons" this days. Get out more, you need a
few photons arriving tangentially to tan your hide.
Should you notice a lighter patch under wrist watch it's because
a corpuscle didn't arrive. A wave would have passed through
your watch. Let me know if you want to talk physics.
Androcles.

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
oups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.


That may be, but my "no" was qualified.


No it wasn't. All speeds are relative.


"Qualified"
#2: Limited, restricted, or modified: a qualified plan for expansion.

In this case the qualification was my addition of "instantaneous".



Not if by SOL you mean the instaneous speed.

SOL = sqrt(dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2)/dt.
That's instantaneous VELOCITY.

Hmm.. what about sqrt(arg) suggests a direction to you?

That's not even a sentence. What arg are you talking about?


Your arg was "dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2". You defined the instantaneous SOL, at
least in the limit that dt,dx,dy,dz - 0.




Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev


Sure, have another drink. Cheers.



Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

We call them "photons" this days. Get out more, you need a
few photons arriving tangentially to tan your hide.

Yes, in the tanning range of the spectrum most wave activity is created
by excited atoms that give off energy in discrete photons. Also the
absorption by molecules in the skin is also quantized.

Should you notice a lighter patch under wrist watch it's because
a corpuscle didn't arrive. A wave would have passed through
your watch.

And many do.

Let me know if you want to talk physics.

Thanks, my pleasure.

"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
oups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm
going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.


That may be, but my "no" was qualified.


No it wasn't. All speeds are relative.


"Qualified"
#2: Limited, restricted, or modified: a qualified plan for expansion.

In this case the qualification was my addition of "instantaneous".



1 : done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time
death was instantaneous
2 : done without any delay being purposely introduced took instantaneous
action to correct the abuse
3 : occurring or present at a particular instant instantaneous velocity

It seems the dictionary authors understand "instantaneous velocity" and
expect you to as well. They use it as an example, it must be commonly
understood.




Not if by SOL you mean the instaneous speed.

SOL = sqrt(dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2)/dt.
That's instantaneous VELOCITY.

Hmm.. what about sqrt(arg) suggests a direction to you?

That's not even a sentence. What arg are you talking about?


Your arg was "dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2". You defined the instantaneous SOL, at
least in the limit that dt,dx,dy,dz - 0.

Yeah, so? Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Let's get back to the subject.

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?
You say no, I say yes.
We have a point of contention.
We have a reference frame, a g-field, a body such as the sun or the Earth
with a suitable origin. Why can't light from a distant star move through
the reference frame at a speed in excess of 300,000 km/s, if the reference
frame and the star have a relative speed that is greater than zero?




Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using
e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev


Sure, have another drink. Cheers.



Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

We call them "photons" this days. Get out more, you need a
few photons arriving tangentially to tan your hide.

Yes, in the tanning range of the spectrum most wave activity is created
by excited atoms that give off energy in discrete photons. Also the
absorption by molecules in the skin is also quantized.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Should you notice a lighter patch under wrist watch it's because
a corpuscle didn't arrive. A wave would have passed through
your watch.

And many do.

Let me know if you want to talk physics.

Thanks, my pleasure.

Ok, go ahead. Explain your qualified no, we seem to agree on other points.
Androcles.

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
oups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm
going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.


That may be, but my "no" was qualified.


No it wasn't. All speeds are relative.


"Qualified"
#2: Limited, restricted, or modified: a qualified plan for expansion.

In this case the qualification was my addition of "instantaneous".



1 : done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time
death was instantaneous
2 : done without any delay being purposely introduced took instantaneous
action to correct the abuse
3 : occurring or present at a particular instant instantaneous velocity

It seems the dictionary authors understand "instantaneous velocity" and
expect you to as well. They use it as an example, it must be commonly
understood.


As you pointed out the instantaneous speed is the magnitude of the
instantaneous velocity. These quantities cannot really be measured
exactly as they are infinite limits...



CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?
You say no, I say yes.
We have a point of contention.
We have a reference frame, a g-field, a body such as the sun or the Earth
with a suitable origin. Why can't light from a distant star move through
the reference frame at a speed in excess of 300,000 km/s, if the reference
frame and the star have a relative speed that is greater than zero?


Because to do so would mean that we have another definition of km,
which is defined such that the speed is exactly c. The meter and
second are electromagnetic units, which adjust in concert to maintain
ds^2 = c^2dt^2 - dx^2 - dy^2 - dz^2 locally, regardless of the motion
of the observer through the electromagnetic fields.




Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using
e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev


Sure, have another drink. Cheers.



Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

We call them "photons" this days. Get out more, you need a
few photons arriving tangentially to tan your hide.

Yes, in the tanning range of the spectrum most wave activity is created
by excited atoms that give off energy in discrete photons. Also the
absorption by molecules in the skin is also quantized.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing?


Agreeing here.

$ Typo-corrected *acceleration* FRAME-of-REFERENCE (..thanks Dirk):
ACCELERATiON = DiRECTiON, or (Velocity-MAGNiTUDE) / DURATiON, change.
o o o o
o o o vector
o o o PROjECTiON
A - - - VELOCiTY vector - - B - - - - - - C
o o o
o o o
o o ..ANY actual PATH o

GUESS *SPEED* is CLEARLY (..ANY actual PATH) / DURATiON.!!
VELOCiTY = (Any measured or imagined VECTOR) / DURATiON.!!
CLEARLY the POSiTiON B is an ARBiTRARY point on the PATH.!!
Any *OTHER two POiNTs* on the *SAME PATH* is a *DiFFERENT* VECTOR.!!

$ Has the FAT lady sung Brian's song.?!!
EVERY politician LOVEs to have PROPER emphasis on PRONOUNCED text.!!
You will read MY posts, as if SPEAKiNG, loud & CLEAR, with THRUST.!!


tadchem wrote: David R Tribble wrote: brian a m stuckless wrote:
No.!! No no no.!! DP DooOP.!!
1. "A clock and a ruler are two different things" ..in REAL
life.!! but A clock and a ruler are BOTH objective POiNTmass
things, in GR.

A GR radius r = v^2 / g = v_escape^2 / 2*(n - 1)*g, from
a POiNT A, ON a WORLD-line in SPACE-time, is COMPLETELY
(GR's T_uv CANNOT BE mathematically RELATED to matter,
in any way).!!

PROFOUNDLY, G_uv NO matter ..means NO SPACE-time-curvature
in GR.!!

2. "The measurement of the time of two instants of a clock" ..here
in YOUR example, is Momentum-VELOCiTY *DURATiON* ..a time-duration.

3. You CANNOT know MEASURED CLOCK-POSiTiON A, within PLANCK-length.
$$ DoooOP DOooOP De dooOP De dooOP De dooOP De dooOP De dooOP De.!!

Show: 1986 VELOCiTY c or the SPEED c "as-MEASURED Least-Squares".!!

CALL.!! CALL iMMEDiATELY.!! iMMEDiATELY.!! ..if you happen to "fix"
any HUP, UP, or GR POiNT A closer than a PLANCK length, lp ..duh.!!

A. HUP, UP or GR Tivity POSiTiON A PLANCK UNcertainty
[ i CANNOT locate POSiTiON A ..to within (+) or (-) lp / 2. ]
[ i CANNOT measure POSiTiON A closer than lp = hbar / Mp*c. ]
[ This applies iNHERENTLY to "EXACT position of ANY CLOCK." ]
[ This applies iNHERENTLY to "EXACT position of ANY RULER." ]
[ This applies iNHERENTLY for "EXACT position of ANY BALL." ]
*You CANNOT ((focus)) POSiTiON A closer than PLANCK LENGTH.!!

THEREfore, Heisenberg's UN-necessary UNcertainty's REDUNDANT.

B. Heisenberg's UNnecessary UNcertainty Principle
[ HEiSENBERG UNcertainty's ALL about HOW dimwits ((focus)). ]
[i CANNOT ((focus)) on BOTH ENDs of VELOCiTY vector AT ONCE.]

Heisenberg was NOT WRONG ..just because he GOT CAUGHT too OFTEN,
"Trying to ((focus)) on BOTH ENDs of VELOCiTY vectors, at once!"

Bilge wrote: I was wondering if anybody could help me, --

| PD wrote: 1. A clock and a ruler are two different things.

| wrote:
| 2. You assumed that the leading edge of the light ray will return
| to the source location. BTW this assumption violates the UP. Why?
| Because it would mean that you would knoe the velocity and the
| location of the light ray simultaneously.
About MiRROR-delay Velocity-*DiRECTiON-change* (i.e. acceleration).?!!
Planck out of bag.!! HUP UP Tivity POSiTiON A PLANCK UNcertainty.
Acceleration = direction, or (velocity-magnitude) / duration, change.


Black Knight wrote: "shevek" wrote in message
oups.com...
Black Knight wrote: "shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...
Pentcho Valev wrote: [..]
CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?

Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.

That may be, but my "no" was qualified.

No it wasn't. All speeds are relative.

Not if by SOL you mean the instaneous speed.

SOL = sqrt(dx^2 +dy^2+dz^2)/dt.
That's instantaneous VELOCITY.

Hmm.. what about sqrt(arg) suggests a direction to you?

That's not even a sentence. What arg are you talking about?

Speed is the magnitude of velocity,
there is no such word as "instaneous",

SPEED is NOT the MAGNiTUDE of VELOCiTY, dooOP.!!
Note, VELOCiTY is vector MAGNiTUDE / duration.!!
And SPEED is the actual PATH taken / duration.!!

1. CHANGiNG (DiRECTiON, SHAPE or MAGNiTUDE) / DURATiON is an
ACCELERATiON. PARTiCULARLY, Volume / (Surface Area)*duration.
2. [OBSERVE ( LEFT side ) over / ( with no BOTTOM bracket )].
4. Note "length" can be a Volume / Surface Area SHAPE FACTOR.
6. VELOCiTY = vector / duration; SPEED = the path / duration.
7. Gravitational constant G has units (meter)^3 / kg*(sec)^2.
9. Note, CHANGE of SiZE / duration is, ALSO, an ACCELERATiON.


I probably ought to get out more so I can get another "tan".

Do so, I have no objection.

Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want using e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev

Sure, have another drink. Cheers.

Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

VARiOUS vacu ONLY exist in squeezed SWiSS-cheese-like minds.
Androcles admits (i have a copy) ..he doesn't THiNK physics.
brian a m stuckless

We call them "photons" this days. Get out more, you need a
few photons arriving tangentially to tan your hide.
Should you notice a lighter patch under wrist watch it's because
a corpuscle didn't arrive. A wave would have passed through
your watch. Let me know if you want to talk physics.
Androcles.

"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
oups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL
FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm
going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.


That may be, but my "no" was qualified.


No it wasn't. All speeds are relative.


"Qualified"
#2: Limited, restricted, or modified: a qualified plan for expansion.

In this case the qualification was my addition of "instantaneous".



1 : done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time
death was instantaneous
2 : done without any delay being purposely introduced took instantaneous
action to correct the abuse
3 : occurring or present at a particular instant instantaneous velocity

It seems the dictionary authors understand "instantaneous velocity" and
expect you to as well. They use it as an example, it must be commonly
understood.


As you pointed out the instantaneous speed is the magnitude of the
instantaneous velocity. These quantities cannot really be measured
exactly as they are infinite limits...

Hmmm... will the height of Earth's atmosphere and the time for a
muon to decay do as a measure of distance/time? I've
been quoted at 100 km and 2.2microseconds.



CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?
You say no, I say yes.
We have a point of contention.
We have a reference frame, a g-field, a body such as the sun or the Earth
with a suitable origin. Why can't light from a distant star move through
the reference frame at a speed in excess of 300,000 km/s, if the
reference
frame and the star have a relative speed that is greater than zero?


Because to do so would mean that we have another definition of km,
which is defined such that the speed is exactly c.

You mean if my flashlight stands still relative to the Earth it emits the
same velocity of light as a star moving relatively at 0.0001c?
Very interesting!
How did you perform this measurement?
Tape measure to the moon, perhaps?

The meter and
second are electromagnetic units, which adjust in concert to maintain
ds^2 = c^2dt^2 - dx^2 - dy^2 - dz^2 locally, regardless of the motion
of the observer through the electromagnetic fields.




Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want
using
e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way
the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev


Sure, have another drink. Cheers.



Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

We call them "photons" this days. Get out more, you need a
few photons arriving tangentially to tan your hide.

Yes, in the tanning range of the spectrum most wave activity is created
by excited atoms that give off energy in discrete photons. Also the
absorption by molecules in the skin is also quantized.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing?


Agreeing here.
Oh good... Let's have another drink.
Cheers.
Androcles

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
oups.com...

Black Knight wrote:
"shevek" wrote in message
ups.com...

Pentcho Valev wrote:
[..]

CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL
FIELD?


Well Tom said Yes, depending on experimental parameters, but I'm
going
to give a qualified no:

You are not qualified.


That may be, but my "no" was qualified.


No it wasn't. All speeds are relative.


"Qualified"
#2: Limited, restricted, or modified: a qualified plan for expansion.

In this case the qualification was my addition of "instantaneous".



1 : done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time
death was instantaneous
2 : done without any delay being purposely introduced took instantaneous
action to correct the abuse
3 : occurring or present at a particular instant instantaneous velocity

It seems the dictionary authors understand "instantaneous velocity" and
expect you to as well. They use it as an example, it must be commonly
understood.


As you pointed out the instantaneous speed is the magnitude of the
instantaneous velocity. These quantities cannot really be measured
exactly as they are infinite limits...

Hmmm... will the height of Earth's atmosphere and the time for a
muon to decay do as a measure of distance/time? I've
been quoted at 100 km and 2.2microseconds.



Sure, but then we need to agree on a cutoff pressure for when the
atmosphere ends, as well as the speed of the muon. Muon decay is a
nice electro-weak clock that will probably agree very well with your
sodium-electron clock except that it will be harder to calibrate and
fly... I doubt the muon halflife (2 ms or so?) is known with much
accuracy.. I can't think of a way to get a bunch of well characterized
muons to follow.


CAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT EXCEED 300000 km/s IN A GRAVITATIONAL FIELD?
You say no, I say yes.
We have a point of contention.
We have a reference frame, a g-field, a body such as the sun or the Earth
with a suitable origin. Why can't light from a distant star move through
the reference frame at a speed in excess of 300,000 km/s, if the
reference
frame and the star have a relative speed that is greater than zero?


Because to do so would mean that we have another definition of km,
which is defined such that the speed is exactly c.

You mean if my flashlight stands still relative to the Earth it emits the
same velocity of light as a star moving relatively at 0.0001c?
Very interesting!
How did you perform this measurement?
Tape measure to the moon, perhaps?


No need for an experiment when the definition specifies the answer. I
didn't measure the mean distance from the Earth to the Sun with a tape
measure either, but I know the answer is exactly one astronomical unit.


Care to tell me how many centimeters in an inch? Hint, there is no
measurement involved in the answer.

The meter and
second are electromagnetic units, which adjust in concert to maintain
ds^2 = c^2dt^2 - dx^2 - dy^2 - dz^2 locally, regardless of the motion
of the observer through the electromagnetic fields.




Sure you can get from point A to point B as fast as you want
using
e.g.
expanding or curved manifolds but at every point along the way
the
instaneous speed of light is c.

Cheers - shev


Sure, have another drink. Cheers.



Done! Let me know if you want to talk physics. Still thinking
corpuscules out there?

We call them "photons" this days. Get out more, you need a
few photons arriving tangentially to tan your hide.

Yes, in the tanning range of the spectrum most wave activity is created
by excited atoms that give off energy in discrete photons. Also the
absorption by molecules in the skin is also quantized.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing?


Agreeing here.
Oh good... Let's have another drink.
Cheers.


I guess that makes this a real 'symposium'!
(Latin, from Greek symposion, from sympinein to drink together, from
syn- + pinein to drink)