Well, this is a bit of a mess...though it's an interesting mess.

http://www.obs-azur.fr/cerga/laser/laslune/llr.htm

(apparently the site is down at the moment) is an
observation station in France that among other things has
been doing laser ranging to the Moon. I've finally gotten
around to plotting it and have noticed the following.

[1] "U"-shapes. These are obviously from the rotation of the Earth,
as they're about 0.01 second high at most and approximately 6 hours
wide. Because the Moon's orbit isn't a perfect circle, they
also appear as J's or daubs as well. Note that 0.01 second
is about 3000 km -- just less than half the Earth's radius.
I'm assuming the measurements are not as accurate if the Moon
is near the horizon as there's rather more atmosphere in
the way -- though there are fields in the data for such things
as atmospheric pressure and humidity.

(Note that in c'=c+v a rotational speed of about 300 m/s
will result in a difference of 2.57 microseconds, give or take.)

[2] The data is rather scanty, though were I to work at it I could
probably try to curve-fit it. There are 6643 data points
over the course of about 7 years, but there are long gaps in
the graph -- in particular, May 2004 has no observations at all.
No doubt one can blame this in part on French weather. :-)

[3] The data is showing some odd minima, after discounting [1].
In particular, the Mar 15 2000 points are showing a minima
around 2.415 seconds; however, data in the Jan 20 timeframe
suggests 2.35 seconds, if not even nearer. Similar things
appear to be happening to the Moon's maxima (apogee).

[4] I could go further with this, as there's plenty of data at
ftp://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/slr/npt/moon ; they have data
dating back to 1969, though I'm not sure I need to go back
quite that far and I can't process LLR format anyway.
This data has much the same problems as the LaserLune site.

At least it's raw data I can play with...and presumably others
can, too; the format's a bit tricky but not that hard to process.
But what I can conclude regarding c'=c+v versus SR -- I don't know.

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

"Measuring" a *PEGGED* VELOCiTY c ought NOT be, too, messy.!!
[*PEGGED* VELOCiTY c was used "measuring" those distances].!!
[Duh.!!] brian a m stuckless


The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
Well, this is a bit of a mess...though it's an interesting mess.
http://www.obs-azur.fr/cerga/laser/laslune/llr.htm

(apparently the site is down at the moment) is an
observation station in France that among other things has
been doing laser ranging to the Moon. I've finally gotten
around to plotting it and have noticed the following.

[1] "U"-shapes. These are obviously from the rotation of the Earth,
as they're about 0.01 second high at most and approximately 6 hours
wide. Because the Moon's orbit isn't a perfect circle, they
also appear as J's or daubs as well. Note that 0.01 second
is about 3000 km -- just less than half the Earth's radius.
I'm assuming the measurements are not as accurate if the Moon
is near the horizon as there's rather more atmosphere in
the way -- though there are fields in the data for such things
as atmospheric pressure and humidity.

(Note that in c'=c+v a rotational speed of about 300 m/s
will result in a difference of 2.57 microseconds, give or take.)

[2] The data is rather scanty, though were I to work at it I could
probably try to curve-fit it. There are 6643 data points
over the course of about 7 years, but there are long gaps in
the graph -- in particular, May 2004 has no observations at all.
No doubt one can blame this in part on French weather. :-)

[3] The data is showing some odd minima, after discounting [1].
In particular, the Mar 15 2000 points are showing a minima
around 2.415 seconds; however, data in the Jan 20 timeframe
suggests 2.35 seconds, if not even nearer. Similar things
appear to be happening to the Moon's maxima (apogee).

[4] I could go further with this, as there's plenty of data at
ftp://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/slr/npt/moon ; they have data
dating back to 1969, though I'm not sure I need to go back
quite that far and I can't process LLR format anyway.
This data has much the same problems as the LaserLune site.

At least it's raw data I can play with...and presumably others
can, too;

insert ..see top of PAGE, dooOP.!!

-- the format's a bit tricky but not that hard to process.
But what I can conclude regarding c'=c+v versus SR -- I don't know.

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

Dear The Ghost In The Machine:

"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote
in message ...
....
At least it's raw data I can play with...and presumably
others can, too; the format's a bit tricky but not that
hard to process. But what I can conclude regarding
c'=c+v versus SR -- I don't know.

Probably nothing, since the motion of the Moon towards or away
from the Earth is very small. Time dilation won't tell you a
thing about the mirror's "clock rate".

The Moon occults several high-z objects. If c were a function of
source speed, these objects would be occulted at different times.
High red shift objects would be visible "long after" other local
objects were blacked out. High blue shift objects would
disappear "long before" the other local objects. No such
phenomenon is observed.

You don't need to fight Henri's and Androcles' fight for them.
They aren't interested in winning, only fighting.

David A. Smith

"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in message
...
Well, this is a bit of a mess...though it's an interesting mess.

http://www.obs-azur.fr/cerga/laser/laslune/llr.htm

(apparently the site is down at the moment) is an
observation station in France that among other things has
been doing laser ranging to the Moon. I've finally gotten
around to plotting it and have noticed the following.

The site is http://www.obs-azur.fr/
Observatoire de la Cote d'Azur.

I don't know about the orange comet curving in space time or the spiral
galaxy though. They seem awfully close.



[1] "U"-shapes. These are obviously from the rotation of the Earth,
as they're about 0.01 second high at most and approximately 6 hours
wide. Because the Moon's orbit isn't a perfect circle, they
also appear as J's or daubs as well. Note that 0.01 second
is about 3000 km -- just less than half the Earth's radius.
I'm assuming the measurements are not as accurate if the Moon
is near the horizon as there's rather more atmosphere in
the way -- though there are fields in the data for such things
as atmospheric pressure and humidity.

(Note that in c'=c+v a rotational speed of about 300 m/s
will result in a difference of 2.57 microseconds, give or take.)

[2] The data is rather scanty, though were I to work at it I could
probably try to curve-fit it. There are 6643 data points
over the course of about 7 years, but there are long gaps in
the graph -- in particular, May 2004 has no observations at all.
No doubt one can blame this in part on French weather. :-)

[3] The data is showing some odd minima, after discounting [1].
In particular, the Mar 15 2000 points are showing a minima
around 2.415 seconds; however, data in the Jan 20 timeframe
suggests 2.35 seconds, if not even nearer. Similar things
appear to be happening to the Moon's maxima (apogee).

[4] I could go further with this, as there's plenty of data at
ftp://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/slr/npt/moon ;

ftp:// ?
That's file transfer protocol. You want to modify nasa.gov files?
They won't let you. They chase down hackers like you. :-)

Androcles.



they have data
dating back to 1969, though I'm not sure I need to go back
quite that far and I can't process LLR format anyway.
This data has much the same problems as the LaserLune site.

At least it's raw data I can play with...and presumably others
can, too; the format's a bit tricky but not that hard to process.
But what I can conclude regarding c'=c+v versus SR -- I don't know.

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

In sci.physics.relativity, Androcles

wrote
on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:00:02 GMT
:

"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in message
...
Well, this is a bit of a mess...though it's an interesting mess.

http://www.obs-azur.fr/cerga/laser/laslune/llr.htm

(apparently the site is down at the moment) is an
observation station in France that among other things has
been doing laser ranging to the Moon. I've finally gotten
around to plotting it and have noticed the following.

The site is http://www.obs-azur.fr/
Observatoire de la Cote d'Azur.

I don't know about the orange comet curving in space time or the spiral
galaxy though. They seem awfully close.

Hm..apparently a temporary setback for their site. I'll agree
the planet, the three funny-colored stars, and the arcs look
a bit strange, too, from an astronomical standpoint -- to say
nothing of the ability to see the silly things at all during nighttime,
as the stars spiral around the central point (near the North Star).



[1] "U"-shapes. These are obviously from the rotation of the Earth,
as they're about 0.01 second high at most and approximately 6 hours
wide. Because the Moon's orbit isn't a perfect circle, they
also appear as J's or daubs as well. Note that 0.01 second
is about 3000 km -- just less than half the Earth's radius.
I'm assuming the measurements are not as accurate if the Moon
is near the horizon as there's rather more atmosphere in
the way -- though there are fields in the data for such things
as atmospheric pressure and humidity.

(Note that in c'=c+v a rotational speed of about 300 m/s
will result in a difference of 2.57 microseconds, give or take.)

[2] The data is rather scanty, though were I to work at it I could
probably try to curve-fit it. There are 6643 data points
over the course of about 7 years, but there are long gaps in
the graph -- in particular, May 2004 has no observations at all.
No doubt one can blame this in part on French weather. :-)

[3] The data is showing some odd minima, after discounting [1].
In particular, the Mar 15 2000 points are showing a minima
around 2.415 seconds; however, data in the Jan 20 timeframe
suggests 2.35 seconds, if not even nearer. Similar things
appear to be happening to the Moon's maxima (apogee).

[4] I could go further with this, as there's plenty of data at
ftp://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/slr/npt/moon ;

ftp:// ?
That's file transfer protocol. You want to modify nasa.gov files?
They won't let you. They chase down hackers like you. :-)

Erm...what made you think I wanted to modify data? I merely
wish to interpret it.

Oh, that's right. You think I'm part of the Society of
Phuckwits for Einsteinian Special Hard-to-Understand
Lingo. (That's pronounced "different".)

Sorry, my card got lost in the mail. :-)


Androcles.



they have data
dating back to 1969, though I'm not sure I need to go back
quite that far and I can't process LLR format anyway.
This data has much the same problems as the LaserLune site.

At least it's raw data I can play with...and presumably others
can, too; the format's a bit tricky but not that hard to process.
But what I can conclude regarding c'=c+v versus SR -- I don't know.

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.




--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.