On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:40:25 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"RetroProphet" wrote in message
...

According to the report, the proof consists
of Psychometric data which proves that God is
a gravitational curvature of subjective reality
caused by the Secular Trend in human growth.

In other words, an illusion.
Thank God.


[Joe King]
Hardly an illusion. I've contended for some time that the so-called realm
of heaven is in our presence but outside our perception.


[George Hammond]
Your are absolutely correct Joe. Science has now PROVEN that your
interpretation of Heaven is correct.

I admire the fact that you were perceptive enough to figure this out
without the aid of modern Science. However, you are not alone.
The Christian Scientists have also figured it out (Mary Baker Eddy).

In fact most perceptive clergymen (particularly the Catholic
Church, but also Protestent Clergy) are well aware of this, and
have been for centuries. Until now there has never been a
scientific proof of it however... and that has been the problem.

I am a physicist, and hang out on sci.physics.relativity generally.
therefore I have corssposted this reply to sci.physics.relativity.

I notice you are posting from a religious newsgroup... which one
may I ask?

I would like to make further contact with the religious community...
particularly people like you who already have a handle on the
fundamental problem.
I have spent most of my time trying to convince the physicists
about this, presuming it would be easier to teach religion to
physicists than it would be to teach physics to religious people.
Turns out I was WRONG about that.... God turns out to be a
more sophisticated challenge than physics!

Try to get back to me on this thread... and let me know from which
newsgroup you posted your message.

I would like to discuss further the nature of the "invisble world"
with you... now that Science has finally discovered what it is.




A turtle cannot
perceive anything other than it's immediate environment the same as a
monkey, although it sees things in a wider perspective, cannot perceive
anything other than what is adequate for its existence. What sort of
response would you get if you were able to communicate with any of the
animal world and ask them about a job, vacation, computers, math, etc? Not
only would an animal not understand your questions, the questions would seem
impossible to answer. Man is no different. We are given sufficient
perception to enable us to survive. Our sense of control refuses to allow
the idea that there may be more to existence than we can comprehend.



========================================
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http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
=======================================
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===========================
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===========================

"George Hammond" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:40:25 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"RetroProphet" wrote in message
...

According to the report, the proof consists
of Psychometric data which proves that God is
a gravitational curvature of subjective reality
caused by the Secular Trend in human growth.

In other words, an illusion.
Thank God.


[Joe King]
Hardly an illusion. I've contended for some time that the so-called realm
of heaven is in our presence but outside our perception.


[George Hammond]
Your are absolutely correct Joe. Science has now PROVEN that your
interpretation of Heaven is correct.

I admire the fact that you were perceptive enough to figure this out
without the aid of modern Science. However, you are not alone.
The Christian Scientists have also figured it out (Mary Baker Eddy).

In fact most perceptive clergymen (particularly the Catholic
Church, but also Protestent Clergy) are well aware of this, and
have been for centuries. Until now there has never been a
scientific proof of it however... and that has been the problem.

I am a physicist, and hang out on sci.physics.relativity generally.
therefore I have corssposted this reply to sci.physics.relativity.

I notice you are posting from a religious newsgroup... which one
may I ask?

I would like to make further contact with the religious community...
particularly people like you who already have a handle on the
fundamental problem.
I have spent most of my time trying to convince the physicists
about this, presuming it would be easier to teach religion to
physicists than it would be to teach physics to religious people.
Turns out I was WRONG about that.... God turns out to be a
more sophisticated challenge than physics!

Try to get back to me on this thread... and let me know from which
newsgroup you posted your message.

I would like to discuss further the nature of the "invisble world"
with you... now that Science has finally discovered what it is.

I am posting on alt.relgion.islam and you may contact me at
.

I am not very interested in organized religion (although I do enjoy hearing
various religious opinions/options) as I find most religious denominations
are more interested in promoting their specific beliefs rather than seeking
truth. The obsession with proving their particular belief rather than
searching for God causes one to become fixated on customs and pomp rather
than what is really important. A search for God is a life time quest and
one has to make the journey alone. It's good to hear opinions, insight and
listen to the accumulated knowledge of different peoples but each of us has
our own road to travel.

Do you really think science proving the existence of God is going to make
much difference in the spiritual outlook of mankind?



A turtle cannot
perceive anything other than it's immediate environment the same as a
monkey, although it sees things in a wider perspective, cannot perceive
anything other than what is adequate for its existence. What sort of
response would you get if you were able to communicate with any of the
animal world and ask them about a job, vacation, computers, math, etc?
Not
only would an animal not understand your questions, the questions would
seem
impossible to answer. Man is no different. We are given sufficient
perception to enable us to survive. Our sense of control refuses to allow
the idea that there may be more to existence than we can comprehend.



========================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
=======================================
Join COSA church (Church of the Scientific Advent)
Send a blank email to
and your email address will be added to the
COSA discussion list (free, no obligation)
===========================
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===========================

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:42:01 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"George Hammond" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:40:25 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"RetroProphet" wrote in message
...

According to the report, the proof consists
of Psychometric data which proves that God is
a gravitational curvature of subjective reality
caused by the Secular Trend in human growth.

In other words, an illusion.
Thank God.


[Joe King]
Hardly an illusion. I've contended for some time that the so-called realm
of heaven is in our presence but outside our perception.


[George Hammond]
Your are absolutely correct Joe. Science has now PROVEN that your
interpretation of Heaven is correct.

I admire the fact that you were perceptive enough to figure this out
without the aid of modern Science. However, you are not alone.
The Christian Scientists have also figured it out (Mary Baker Eddy).

In fact most perceptive clergymen (particularly the Catholic
Church, but also Protestent Clergy) are well aware of this, and
have been for centuries. Until now there has never been a
scientific proof of it however... and that has been the problem.

I am a physicist, and hang out on sci.physics.relativity generally.
therefore I have corssposted this reply to sci.physics.relativity.

I notice you are posting from a religious newsgroup... which one
may I ask?

I would like to make further contact with the religious community...
particularly people like you who already have a handle on the
fundamental problem.
I have spent most of my time trying to convince the physicists
about this, presuming it would be easier to teach religion to
physicists than it would be to teach physics to religious people.
Turns out I was WRONG about that.... God turns out to be a
more sophisticated challenge than physics!

Try to get back to me on this thread... and let me know from which
newsgroup you posted your message.

I would like to discuss further the nature of the "invisble world"
with you... now that Science has finally discovered what it is.


[Joe King]
I am posting on alt.relgion.islam and you may contact me at
(snip address)


[Hammond]
Thanks for letting me know what newsgroup you're posting from,
that way I can contact you.
I won't ask what your intrest in Islam is since it would probably
not be relevent to this thread.
By the way.. I do not talk to people by privately (or by private
email) as a general rule... only publicly on the newsgroups.
Frankly I haven't met anyone in the past decade who is in a
position to tell me anything I don't already know.. while on
the other hand I am surrounded by thousands of "chatty"
amateurs just dying to burn my ear off.


I am not very interested in organized religion (although I do enjoy hearing
various religious opinions/options) as I find most religious denominations
are more interested in promoting their specific beliefs rather than seeking
truth.

[Hammond]
Everyone knows that.


The obsession with proving their particular belief rather than
searching for God causes one to become fixated on customs and pomp rather
than what is really important.

[Hammond]
Well as we all know personal power and cash is what motivates 99.9%
of the human race. The Einstein's are few and far between. That goes
without saying.



A search for God is a life time quest and
one has to make the journey alone. It's good to hear opinions, insight and
listen to the accumulated knowledge of different peoples but each of us has
our own road to travel.

[Hammond]
Another trueisml. However, should some miraculous
scientific breakthrough occur, it would be of interest to every
person on the planet... which is what my post was about.


Do you really think science proving the existence of God is going to make
much difference in the spiritual outlook of mankind?

[Hammond]
Since the most common question in the human language seems to be:
"do you believe in God?"..... a ratinal man can only conclude that
the discovery of a "scientific proof of God" would TREMENDOUSLY
alter the "spiritual outlook of mankind". You might say it would
usher in a new age of civilization.


I am interested in making contact with people interested in the field
of "Science-Religion" generally.... however I am finding it difficult
to locate anyone who is not simply "another amateur".
I was, and still remain therfore intrigued by your remark that
"Heaven is actually in our presence, but not perceptable to us".

Where did you get that idea? Just a lucky guess, or what?

========================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
=======================================
Join COSA church (Church of the Scientific Advent)
Send a blank email to
and your email address will be added to the
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===========================
and please ask your news service to add:
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===========================

"George Hammond" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:42:01 GMT, "Joe King"

"Heaven is actually in our presence, but not perceptable to us".

Where did you get that idea? Just a lucky guess, or what?

Not a lucky guess at all. You are obviously communicating with the wrong
amateurs.

You dont have to be a professional to "see from there", in fact there is a
reasonable rewording of a well known text that would fit here.

It is easier for a camel.......etc, than a member of the intelligensia
(although membership does not preclude, you'll be glad to learn.

(in case this is another example of somebody telling you something you
already know, I apologise in advance)

BOfL
========================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
=======================================
Join COSA church (Church of the Scientific Advent)
Send a blank email to
and your email address will be added to the
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===========================
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===========================

"George Hammond" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:42:01 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"George Hammond" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:40:25 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"RetroProphet" wrote in message
...

According to the report, the proof consists
of Psychometric data which proves that God is
a gravitational curvature of subjective reality
caused by the Secular Trend in human growth.

In other words, an illusion.
Thank God.


[Joe King]
Hardly an illusion. I've contended for some time that the so-called
realm
of heaven is in our presence but outside our perception.


[George Hammond]
Your are absolutely correct Joe. Science has now PROVEN that your
interpretation of Heaven is correct.

I admire the fact that you were perceptive enough to figure this out
without the aid of modern Science. However, you are not alone.
The Christian Scientists have also figured it out (Mary Baker Eddy).

In fact most perceptive clergymen (particularly the Catholic
Church, but also Protestent Clergy) are well aware of this, and
have been for centuries. Until now there has never been a
scientific proof of it however... and that has been the problem.

I am a physicist, and hang out on sci.physics.relativity generally.
therefore I have corssposted this reply to sci.physics.relativity.

I notice you are posting from a religious newsgroup... which one
may I ask?

I would like to make further contact with the religious community...
particularly people like you who already have a handle on the
fundamental problem.
I have spent most of my time trying to convince the physicists
about this, presuming it would be easier to teach religion to
physicists than it would be to teach physics to religious people.
Turns out I was WRONG about that.... God turns out to be a
more sophisticated challenge than physics!

Try to get back to me on this thread... and let me know from which
newsgroup you posted your message.

I would like to discuss further the nature of the "invisble world"
with you... now that Science has finally discovered what it is.


[Joe King]
I am posting on alt.relgion.islam and you may contact me at
(snip address)


[Hammond]
Thanks for letting me know what newsgroup you're posting from,
that way I can contact you.
I won't ask what your intrest in Islam is since it would probably
not be relevent to this thread.
By the way.. I do not talk to people by privately (or by private
email) as a general rule... only publicly on the newsgroups.
Frankly I haven't met anyone in the past decade who is in a
position to tell me anything I don't already know.. while on
the other hand I am surrounded by thousands of "chatty"
amateurs just dying to burn my ear off.

I'm sure I would be included in the amateur group. I did go to the
referenced web site and, although I found it interesting, I also found I was
in over my head.


I am not very interested in organized religion (although I do enjoy
hearing
various religious opinions/options) as I find most religious denominations
are more interested in promoting their specific beliefs rather than
seeking
truth.

[Hammond]
Everyone knows that.


The obsession with proving their particular belief rather than
searching for God causes one to become fixated on customs and pomp rather
than what is really important.

[Hammond]
Well as we all know personal power and cash is what motivates 99.9%
of the human race. The Einstein's are few and far between. That goes
without saying.



A search for God is a life time quest and
one has to make the journey alone. It's good to hear opinions, insight
and
listen to the accumulated knowledge of different peoples but each of us
has
our own road to travel.

[Hammond]
Another trueisml. However, should some miraculous
scientific breakthrough occur, it would be of interest to every
person on the planet... which is what my post was about.

I'm sure it would have some impact but I'm not sure it would be significant.
Scientific proof of God only means that a something (God) exists but doesn't
prove what, if anything, that something did to affect my life such as life
after death or what influence God will have or has had upon my existence.
The average person wouldn't understand the scientific concept and thus would
still be bound by faith rather than understanding but this time it would be
faith in man rather than faith in God. Of course, it may be the first of
many steps in understanding our existence and a real advancement of the
human mind.

So, what would scientific proof of God mean to most people? Right now, we
believe in the existence of God because we are told to have faith in the
words of a theological expert. Scientific proof of God would only mean that
now we should have faith in God because of the words of a scientific expert.
And I believe history has shown both theologist and scientists have both
been wrong.




Do you really think science proving the existence of God is going to make
much difference in the spiritual outlook of mankind?

[Hammond]
Since the most common question in the human language seems to be:
"do you believe in God?"..... a ratinal man can only conclude that
the discovery of a "scientific proof of God" would TREMENDOUSLY
alter the "spiritual outlook of mankind". You might say it would
usher in a new age of civilization.

I don't think believe most people believe the problem is whether or not
there is a God but what are the ramifications to me of the existence of God.


I am interested in making contact with people interested in the field
of "Science-Religion" generally.... however I am finding it difficult
to locate anyone who is not simply "another amateur".
I was, and still remain therfore intrigued by your remark that
"Heaven is actually in our presence, but not perceptable to us".

Where did you get that idea? Just a lucky guess, or what?

I guess one would consider it a lucky guess but, to me, it is simply a
logical outcome of viewing nature.

========================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
=======================================
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On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:49:01 GMT, "Brian Fletcher"
wrote:


"George Hammond" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:42:01 GMT, "Joe King"


[Joe King]
"Heaven is actually in our presence, but not perceptable to us".

[Hammond]
Where did you get that idea? Just a lucky guess, or what?


[Brian Fletcher]
Not a lucky guess at all. You are obviously communicating with the wrong
amateurs.

[Hammond]
Could you be less cryptic? What do you mean "not a lucky guess
at all"? What do you mean the "wrong amateurs"?



You dont have to be a professional to "see from there", in fact there is a
reasonable rewording of a well known text that would fit here.

[Hammond]
Would you please cite the "well known text"?


It is easier for a camel.......etc, than a member of the intelligensia
(although membership does not preclude, you'll be glad to learn.

[Hammond]
In that expression Jesus was clearly ridiculing the bone headed
insensitivity and obstinancy of the rich... the ham fisted, jut jawed,
belligerence of the typical tycoon.....Donald Trump for instance
would be a prime example of the "camel" who would have no hope
of passing through the eye of a needle... i.e. who is too crass and
insensitive to be insulted by even the sharp prick of religion..
Anyway... I see no direct connection between that parable and the
fact that "heaven is in our presence but beyond our perception"...
although I suppore it is, remotely.


(in case this is another example of somebody telling you something you
already know, I apologise in advance)

[Hammond]
As long as you can refrain from direct insults, I'll be glad to talk.
Please be aware that I am a bleagured physicist who has
scores of professional anti-religious atheistic scientists following
him around heckling him because of my website (URL below).
although a physicist myself, I have been batteling the atheists
of the physics department for some time... am not an amateur,
have been published in the peer reviewed literature... and am
well known on Usenet... mainly in the physics newsgroups.

I am now desperately trying to make contact with the established
Sci-Rel community in hope of making contact with a more
enlightened constituency.


BOfL


========================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
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On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:30:30 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:

snip

[Joe King]
"Heaven is actually in our presence, but not perceptable to us".


[Hammond
Where did you get that idea? Just a lucky guess, or what?

[Joe King]
I guess one would consider it a lucky guess but, to me, it is simply a
logical outcome of viewing nature.

[Hammond]
Congratulations, since it turns out to be correct.
In fact Hammond (2003) has rigorously proven it
and published the proof in the peer reviewed scientific
literature.
I must say however, that before I (accidently) discovered
the scnnitific proof of the fact, it was never a "logical
outcome of viewing nature" to me!
Perhaps you would care to share with us why you consider
it "simply a logical outcome of viewing nature"?

I mean, you point out a turtle sees one reality, a dog another
a horse another, a man another. Are you saying there God is like
another species higher than Man who sees a reality Man can't see..?
(by the way I don't disagree with this intuition.. I'm merely
floored that someone thought of it!).

I'm afraid the "invisible world" Heaven... is a bit more complicated
than that, HOWEVER, your logic is essentially correct... and your
METAPHORICAL example is correct also. For instance... a child
cannot see the reality of an adult... and for this reason children
are more enamoured and attached to animals (say dogs) than
adults are... and this attachment is EXACTLY connected with
the fact that the animals are less intelligent (and so are
children) than adult human beings!

So.... I remain quite IMPRESSED with your analogy.... but I
must say.... to start with that simple fact and deduce that
"Heaven exists" and "Heaven is right in front of us but we can't
see it"... certainly is a leap of genius I was never able to make..
until I discovered it accidently in Psychometry and Relativity.
Once again I remain HIGHLY IMPRESSED by your intution..
and in fact not a little envous... since your intuition turns out
to be now CONFIRMED by the full power of modern Science!


========================================
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George Hammond wrote:
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:30:30 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:
snip
[Joe King]
"Heaven is actually in our presence, but not perceptable to us".

Congratulations, since it turns out to be correct.
In fact Hammond (2003) has rigorously proven it
and published the proof in the peer reviewed scientific
literature.
I must say however, that before I (accidently) discovered
the scnnitific proof of the fact, it was never a "logical
outcome of viewing nature" to me!




Since space/time are used by us to order sense data it is incorrect to
think of space/time existing out there in the so ordered sense data.
If there is no real space/time then everything is in the same place.

Our world is one of illusion. Things exist, and decay. Good things
and bad things happen, but the joy of the 'game' of life compensates.
Things called electrons are moved about, spun around, painted, and
walked on.

When we peer at the sense data we discover that things aren't really
there. Everything other than the sense of continuity provided by the
electrons, is somehow 'invisible'.

This 'sense' of continuity gives us the feel of reality, but everything
in it is coming from the only 'place' it can come from, it is flowing
outward from deep within us.

Space/time are no more in our sense perceptions then 3 dimensions are
on our 2 dimensional TV screens. Buildings change size as we approach,
but buildings can't change size. Reality is one thing, perception an
other.

But if our perception is all that we are directly acquainted with then
where is . . . realtiy? Out there? No. For a fragment of time we
will believe it is there.

During that fragment we will see many things, laugh, cry, love, and
die. But we never move away from the Here and Now, our point on the
vinyl record of space/time.



tomcat

"George Hammond" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:42:01 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"George Hammond" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:40:25 GMT, "Joe King"
wrote:


"RetroProphet" wrote in message
...

According to the report, the proof consists
of Psychometric data which proves that God is
a gravitational curvature of subjective reality
caused by the Secular Trend in human growth.

In other words, an illusion.
Thank God.


[Joe King]
Hardly an illusion. I've contended for some time that the so-called
realm
of heaven is in our presence but outside our perception.


[George Hammond]
Your are absolutely correct Joe. Science has now PROVEN that your
interpretation of Heaven is correct.

I admire the fact that you were perceptive enough to figure this out
without the aid of modern Science. However, you are not alone.
The Christian Scientists have also figured it out (Mary Baker Eddy).

In fact most perceptive clergymen (particularly the Catholic
Church, but also Protestent Clergy) are well aware of this, and
have been for centuries. Until now there has never been a
scientific proof of it however... and that has been the problem.

I am a physicist, and hang out on sci.physics.relativity generally.
therefore I have corssposted this reply to sci.physics.relativity.

I notice you are posting from a religious newsgroup... which one
may I ask?

I would like to make further contact with the religious community...
particularly people like you who already have a handle on the
fundamental problem.
I have spent most of my time trying to convince the physicists
about this, presuming it would be easier to teach religion to
physicists than it would be to teach physics to religious people.
Turns out I was WRONG about that.... God turns out to be a
more sophisticated challenge than physics!

Try to get back to me on this thread... and let me know from which
newsgroup you posted your message.

I would like to discuss further the nature of the "invisble world"
with you... now that Science has finally discovered what it is.


[Joe King]
I am posting on alt.relgion.islam and you may contact me at
(snip address)


[Hammond]
Thanks for letting me know what newsgroup you're posting from,
that way I can contact you.
I won't ask what your intrest in Islam is since it would probably
not be relevent to this thread.
By the way.. I do not talk to people by privately (or by private
email) as a general rule... only publicly on the newsgroups.
Frankly I haven't met anyone in the past decade who is in a
position to tell me anything I don't already know.. while on
the other hand I am surrounded by thousands of "chatty"
amateurs just dying to burn my ear off.

Talking to your own sock puppet again , Eh George?

"Brian Fletcher" wrote in message
...

"George Hammond" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:42:01 GMT, "Joe King"

"Heaven is actually in our presence, but not perceptable to us".

Where did you get that idea? Just a lucky guess, or what?

Not a lucky guess at all. You are obviously communicating with the wrong
amateurs.

Right - he needs another fanatical, insane kook!


You dont have to be a professional to "see from there", in fact there is a
reasonable rewording of a well known text that would fit here.

I spoke too soon!


It is easier for a camel.......etc, than a member of the intelligensia
(although membership does not preclude, you'll be glad to learn.

(in case this is another example of somebody telling you something you
already know, I apologise in advance)

Gee ... maybe if you'd read your bible - you'd KNOW what it said!


BOfL

I get the feeling George has created another sock puppet to talk with.