Thank you for your reply. It's appreciated. I have no comment with respect
to Bjer.

By now numerous researchers who have poured over what materials exist,
including the recently archived Einstein letters, and although some
specifics of Albert's relationship with Mileva have been clarified (such as
their first child born out of wedlock while they lived & studied together),
the rest remains obscure except some rather solid anecdotes ... which I
feel other authors
todate have treated fairly - about as fairly as one can treat incomplete
data
of a personal nature.

Let me say that I have no particular moral agenda in any of this. Mine is
simply an historical interest began in1958 as a physics student. If I am
partial to any interpretation to date it would be in favour of the Princeton

work on Einstein which I believe has been open minded and fair.

I missed my chance to look into these matters more fully in the late 1950's
and early 60's, both here in the US and in Europe, where I had contacts I
could have used to do discrete exploration. Now, until further Einstein
family
letters, or Maric family letters, or letters from the personal associates of
Maric and Einstein at the time are released, I do not believe more will be
added to
this story as it now stands ... and conjecture will continue from time to
time.

I will say this:

(i) My original interest in this matter began when I learned, from my
family, that Mileva had been a mathamtics student of some repute in her own
right,
interested in and pursuing advanced mathematical work in 'natural
philosophy', when she and Albert met. Indeed this was the whole basis for
their meeting and forming a relationship. And both Mileva and Albert were
part of a larger context of other students similarly occupied, who
eventually
formed a discussion group (as it were), which later met at Albert's and
Mileva's apartment. Once Albert's and Mileva's personal relationship
formed in earnest, typical Germanic rules of custom took over with Mileva
supressing her own life in favour of helping and feeding Albert's pursuit of
a career. (The best authors support this view which is well supported in
letters and secondary evidence.)

(ii) I do not believe there is any doubt, Albert and Mileava discussed
"his work", in fact there are numerous references to this being the case.
How far this went is the question under debate, and most authors to date
back off saying 'it did not go very far' or 'could not have gone far due to
Mileva's lack of mathematical training'. In spite of this we know Mileva
took several advanced courses Albert could not take himself in which
Mileva communicated at length to Albert about, at Albert's insistence.
(This is documented). We know that Albert incorporated aspects of other
people's theories which he never gave credit for - which haunted him for
years. We know there came a point where Mileva's family responsibilities
took over, but by that time Albert and Mileva had parted except for Albert
giving Mileva the money from his Nobel Prize which allowed Mileva to
purchase a property to sustain herself in.

see below ...




EjP wrote:

Jack Jones wrote:

Has anyone here anything intelligent to say about Mileva? I have about
exhausted everything I can find about her and as most researchers know
there is a palpable lackof documentation for anything connecting her
directly to relativity.


As far as I can tell, the whole case that Mileva had some direct
responsibility for relativity rests on one letter in which
Einstein referred to it as "our" theory.

There are several references to "our theory" and "our work". What this means

is unclear and Einstein when asked declined to clarify it. Besso never
clarified
it when asked. Albert's son never clarfiied it. Mileva would not clarify it
except
to say: "Albert did something I will never be able to forgive him for"!
Erwin
Freundlich was asked what this meant and he replied: 'it matters not now'..
(it does not mater now). Hellen Dukas, AE's secretary at Princeton' was
once asked about Euinstein's first wife and she replied (famously): "Albert
did
not have a first wife"! .......... you draw your own conclusions.

On the other hand,
the two were apart much of the time,

not when they first met and lived together ...

and volumes of their
correspondence exist,

Mileva's letters are held in an archive and have never been released to
date.
Little else exists between them that I'm aware of. I dont know what
'volumes' you are referring to. (Family correspondence which their son
had has never been released so far as I know). Family correspondence
from both their families at the time they were together and for years after,

has not been released so far as I know. There is one letter alleged to be
from
Albert's family at the time which calls Mileava a "barbarian" - the letter
is
a clear racist slur (toward Serbs), I am told.

and as far as I know, there is no
example of one of her letters containing a significant
contribution.

Mileva's letters are held in an archive, supposedly, and all efforts to get
at them have failed to date. (The archive wont even answer email or reply)
Sincerely,
Jack






Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows or and has proof for.


Bjer-kook will be happy to claim he has proof.

-E

Sincerely,
Jack

Thanks for your reply. I think I know the few letter you speak of
from the AE Archive but as you say nothing of a technical nature,
except for the posture of Albert as a man unproven ... to a girl by the
way in mathematical training herself, one of the very few to be admitted.

(My grandmother was a mathematician in training at this same time, who
first told me of Mileva and Albert, so the rumors & speculation already
existed post 1905. My grandmother saide how very difficult it was for any
female to gain entry muchless stay on station with little or no job
prospects
all going to the men. And by the time of the last year most woman if any
failed
or just disappeared. My grandmother continued until the Depression and
then was told to quit: "we can only support men who have families to
support". (My grandmother had my mother to support but that did not count
so her father brought her home by train whereshe was instantly employed as
a
rural school teacher - she eventually became superintendant of the school
district.)

Jack



David Evens wrote:

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:43:48 -0500, Jack Jones
wrote:
Has anyone here anything intelligent to say about Mileva? I have about
exhausted everything I can find about her and as most researchers know
there is a palpable lackof documentation for anything connecting her
directly to relativity.

Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows or and has proof for.

I understand that a goodly number of Albert's letters to her from
before they were married (but including the time when their actual
first child was born) were recently made public. Apparently, there's
a very small amount about his work that predates the development of SR
that he discussed with her, but it's mostly the kind of stuff that you
expect from a down-on-his-luck man to the girl he's crazy about

"Jack Jones" wrote in message
...
Thanks for your reply. I think I know the few letter you speak of
from the AE Archive but as you say nothing of a technical nature,
except for the posture of Albert as a man unproven ... to a girl by the
way in mathematical training herself, one of the very few to be admitted.

(My grandmother was a mathematician in training at this same time, who
first told me of Mileva and Albert, so the rumors & speculation already
existed post 1905. My grandmother saide how very difficult it was for any
female to gain entry muchless stay on station with little or no job
prospects
all going to the men. And by the time of the last year most woman if any
failed
or just disappeared. My grandmother continued until the Depression and
then was told to quit: "we can only support men who have families to
support". (My grandmother had my mother to support but that did not count
so her father brought her home by train whereshe was instantly employed as
a
rural school teacher - she eventually became superintendant of the school
district.)

Jack

What you say is of course true and a terrible inditement on the age. But to
be balanced one must look at cases where superb mathematical talent won by
its own merit - eg Emily Noether. So to say they had no hope is not quite
true - you just had to be so damn good your sex did not matter. And to also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good mathematics
would probably get by quite well without you - of course that is small
comfort to the promising careers it snuffed out and the attendant
heartbreak.

Thanks
Bill




David Evens wrote:

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:43:48 -0500, Jack Jones
wrote:
Has anyone here anything intelligent to say about Mileva? I have about
exhausted everything I can find about her and as most researchers know
there is a palpable lackof documentation for anything connecting her
directly to relativity.

Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows or and has proof for.

I understand that a goodly number of Albert's letters to her from
before they were married (but including the time when their actual
first child was born) were recently made public. Apparently, there's
a very small amount about his work that predates the development of SR
that he discussed with her, but it's mostly the kind of stuff that you
expect from a down-on-his-luck man to the girl he's crazy about

Thank you for the reply, Bill. Having lurked here some time I value your
thoughts and expertise.

Jack -





Bill Hobba wrote:

"Jack Jones" wrote in message
...
Thanks for your reply. I think I know the few letter you speak of
from the AE Archive but as you say nothing of a technical nature,
except for the posture of Albert as a man unproven ... to a girl by the
way in mathematical training herself, one of the very few to be admitted.

(My grandmother was a mathematician in training at this same time, who
first told me of Mileva and Albert, so the rumors & speculation already
existed post 1905. My grandmother saide how very difficult it was for any
female to gain entry muchless stay on station with little or no job
prospects
all going to the men. And by the time of the last year most woman if any
failed
or just disappeared. My grandmother continued until the Depression and
then was told to quit: "we can only support men who have families to
support". (My grandmother had my mother to support but that did not count
so her father brought her home by train whereshe was instantly employed as
a
rural school teacher - she eventually became superintendant of the school
district.)

Jack

What you say is of course true and a terrible inditement on the age. But to
be balanced one must look at cases where superb mathematical talent won by
its own merit - eg Emily Noether. So to say they had no hope is not quite
true - you just had to be so damn good your sex did not matter. And to also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good mathematics
would probably get by quite well without you - of course that is small
comfort to the promising careers it snuffed out and the attendant
heartbreak.

Thanks
Bill




David Evens wrote:

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:43:48 -0500, Jack Jones
wrote:
Has anyone here anything intelligent to say about Mileva? I have about
exhausted everything I can find about her and as most researchers know
there is a palpable lackof documentation for anything connecting her
directly to relativity.

Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows or and has proof for.

I understand that a goodly number of Albert's letters to her from
before they were married (but including the time when their actual
first child was born) were recently made public. Apparently, there's
a very small amount about his work that predates the development of SR
that he discussed with her, but it's mostly the kind of stuff that you
expect from a down-on-his-luck man to the girl he's crazy about

"Bill Hobba" wrote in message
...

"Jack Jones" wrote in message
...

Thanks for your reply. I think I know the few letter you speak of
from the AE Archive but as you say nothing of a technical nature,
except for the posture of Albert as a man unproven ... to a girl by the
way in mathematical training herself, one of the very few to be
admitted.

(My grandmother was a mathematician in training at this same time, who
first told me of Mileva and Albert, so the rumors & speculation already
existed post 1905. My grandmother saide how very difficult it was for
any female to gain entry muchless stay on station with little or no job
prospects all going to the men. And by the time of the last year most
woman if any failed or just disappeared. My grandmother continued
until the Depression and then was told to quit: "we can only support
men who have families to support". (My grandmother had my mother
to support but that did not count so her father brought her home by
train where she was instantly employed as a rural school teacher -
she eventually became superintendant of the school district.)

What you say is of course true and a terrible inditement on the age. But
to be balanced one must look at cases where superb mathematical talent
won by its own merit - eg Emily Noether.

Her name was Emmy, not Emily. I know that many Relativists mistake her
name. But then some also think that "Noether" was a man. Because even
modern bigots have a hard time believing that women can do math.
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Yq...1.onemai n.co
m

So to say they had no hope is
not quite true - you just had to be so damn good your sex did not matter.

Or you have a male patron in the power structure, who likes the answers you
get.

But if you have a male opponent in the power structure (for whatever
reason), you are SOL. Even today. Look at the 1974 nobel prize for
discovery of a the first neutron star (in the Crab nebula). The discovery
was made by Jocelyn Bell. The award (and all the credit) was given to
Hewish, when Hewish had nothing to do with the work or ideas. He simply
"owned" the radio telescope and the position of power.
http://scienceweek.com/2004/sc040611-1.htm

And to also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good
mathematics would probably get by quite well without you -
of course that is small comfort to the promising careers it
snuffed out and the attendant heartbreak.

How many Milevas and Srinivasas (Ramanujan) have we lost, because they were
the wrong color or wrong sex? Or just had the wrong ideas? Or had someone
more accepted by the power structure grab the credit?

--
greywolf42
ubi dubium ibi libertas
{remove planet for e-mail}

greywolf42 wrote:

Her name was Emmy, not Emily. I know that many Relativists mistake her
name. But then some also think that "Noether" was a man. Because even
modern bigots have a hard time believing that women can do math.
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Yq...1.onemai n.co
m

From a biographical site.

Emmy Amalie Noether

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Born: 23 March 1882 in Erlangen, Bavaria, Germany
Died: 14 April 1935 in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, USA

the URL is

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~his...ther_Emmy.html

Emily is just the English way of spelling Amilie.

It was symptomatic of the time that men resented women in the
mathematics profession. David Hilbert had to lecture his men students at
Geottingen to remind them that it was a university and not a locker
room. Hilbert made it possible for Emmy Amalie Noether to teach at
Geottingen where she made many important contributions. Her theorem
associating the symmetries of the Langrangian density functional with
conserved quantities is of the utmost importance in physics. She also
made many other contributions to algebra.

Emmy Amilie Noether had to leave Germany in 1933 because she was a Jew.
Germany's loss was Brynmawr's gain when she came to the U.S. to teach.

In spite of Hilbert's lectures many of the men at the university
referred to her as Das Noether, a rather unflattering use of the neutral
definite article in German. Emmy Amilie Noether did not possess feminine
physical beauty in any great amount. So she was referred to abusively.

Or you have a male patron in the power structure, who likes the answers you
get.

But if you have a male opponent in the power structure (for whatever
reason), you are SOL. Even today. Look at the 1974 nobel prize for
discovery of a the first neutron star (in the Crab nebula). The discovery
was made by Jocelyn Bell. The award (and all the credit) was given to
Hewish, when Hewish had nothing to do with the work or ideas. He simply
"owned" the radio telescope and the position of power.
http://scienceweek.com/2004/sc040611-1.htm

A wretched happening. A similar thing happened to Rosalyn Franklin who
was as instrumental as Watson and Crick in the discovery of DNA. It was
her expertise in X-Ray diffraction imaging that spotted the double
helix. Watson and Crick did not give her any of the credit she deserved.




And to also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good
mathematics would probably get by quite well without you -
of course that is small comfort to the promising careers it
snuffed out and the attendant heartbreak.


How many Milevas and Srinivasas (Ramanujan) have we lost, because they were
the wrong color or wrong sex? Or just had the wrong ideas? Or had someone
more accepted by the power structure grab the credit?

Ramanujan was not lost. G.H.Hardy found him and brought him to
Cambridge. To this day mathematicians are mining treasures from his
work. I would rate him in the top five mathematicians of the post
Alexandrian era (from about 100 c.e. to the present). Ramanujan was not
mistreated but he was not fully appreciated and understood. His mind did
not run in conventional linear-logical manner so it was hard for more
conventional mathematicians to figure out just how he got his results.
Ramanujan did not always use picture perfect logic in deriving his
theorems but he was rarely wrong.

It is not clear how good Mileva was. Her career was done in by marriage
and motherhood. One can speculate but one will never know.

Whereas with Emmy Amilie Noether there is not doubt whatsoever of her
talent. She proved herself in a rather hostile environment. Another
female physicist, Lisa Meitner was also under estimated. She had two
things going against her; her gender and the fact she was Jewish. She
had to get out of Germany to save her skin. Never the less Otto Hahn had
the gall to pick her brains even while she was in exile. Meitner had as
much as anyone to do with the discovery of a sustainable fissioning
process for uranium.

Bob Kolker

"Jack Jones" wrote in message
...
Thank you for the reply, Bill. Having lurked here some time I value your
thoughts and expertise.

Thank you Jack. Looking at what I wrote I just hope it was clear enough I
do not condone such a silly practice as sexism - the world would have been
immeasurably better of if it was wiped out centuries ago. I simply like to
be balanced. Scientists by and large recognized the error of sexism long
before the rest of society did; which is why when a great talent like Emily
Noether cam along people like Hilbert did everything in their power to
ensure she was given the opportunities she deserved.

BTW lurk a bit less - post some stuff. Genuine discussion is always
welcome.

Thanks
Bill


Jack -





Bill Hobba wrote:

"Jack Jones" wrote in message
...
Thanks for your reply. I think I know the few letter you speak of
from the AE Archive but as you say nothing of a technical nature,
except for the posture of Albert as a man unproven ... to a girl by
the
way in mathematical training herself, one of the very few to be
admitted.

(My grandmother was a mathematician in training at this same time, who
first told me of Mileva and Albert, so the rumors & speculation
already
existed post 1905. My grandmother saide how very difficult it was for
any
female to gain entry muchless stay on station with little or no job
prospects
all going to the men. And by the time of the last year most woman if
any
failed
or just disappeared. My grandmother continued until the Depression and
then was told to quit: "we can only support men who have families to
support". (My grandmother had my mother to support but that did not
count
so her father brought her home by train whereshe was instantly
employed as
a
rural school teacher - she eventually became superintendant of the
school
district.)

Jack

What you say is of course true and a terrible inditement on the age.
But to
be balanced one must look at cases where superb mathematical talent won
by
its own merit - eg Emily Noether. So to say they had no hope is not
quite
true - you just had to be so damn good your sex did not matter. And to
also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good
mathematics
would probably get by quite well without you - of course that is small
comfort to the promising careers it snuffed out and the attendant
heartbreak.

Thanks
Bill




David Evens wrote:

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:43:48 -0500, Jack Jones
wrote:
Has anyone here anything intelligent to say about Mileva? I have
about
exhausted everything I can find about her and as most researchers
know
there is a palpable lackof documentation for anything connecting
her
directly to relativity.

Thanks in advance for anything anyone knows or and has proof for.

I understand that a goodly number of Albert's letters to her from
before they were married (but including the time when their actual
first child was born) were recently made public. Apparently,
there's
a very small amount about his work that predates the development of
SR
that he discussed with her, but it's mostly the kind of stuff that
you
expect from a down-on-his-luck man to the girl he's crazy about

"greywolf42" wrote in message
...
"Bill Hobba" wrote in message
...

"Jack Jones" wrote in message
...

Thanks for your reply. I think I know the few letter you speak of
from the AE Archive but as you say nothing of a technical nature,
except for the posture of Albert as a man unproven ... to a girl by
the
way in mathematical training herself, one of the very few to be
admitted.

(My grandmother was a mathematician in training at this same time, who
first told me of Mileva and Albert, so the rumors & speculation
already
existed post 1905. My grandmother saide how very difficult it was for
any female to gain entry muchless stay on station with little or no
job
prospects all going to the men. And by the time of the last year most
woman if any failed or just disappeared. My grandmother continued
until the Depression and then was told to quit: "we can only support
men who have families to support". (My grandmother had my mother
to support but that did not count so her father brought her home by
train where she was instantly employed as a rural school teacher -
she eventually became superintendant of the school district.)

What you say is of course true and a terrible inditement on the age.
But
to be balanced one must look at cases where superb mathematical talent
won by its own merit - eg Emily Noether.

Her name was Emmy, not Emily. I know that many Relativists mistake her
name. But then some also think that "Noether" was a man. Because even
modern bigots have a hard time believing that women can do math.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Yq...1.onemai n.co
m

So to say they had no hope is
not quite true - you just had to be so damn good your sex did not
matter.

Or you have a male patron in the power structure, who likes the answers
you
get.

But if you have a male opponent in the power structure (for whatever
reason), you are SOL. Even today. Look at the 1974 nobel prize for
discovery of a the first neutron star (in the Crab nebula). The discovery
was made by Jocelyn Bell. The award (and all the credit) was given to
Hewish, when Hewish had nothing to do with the work or ideas. He simply
"owned" the radio telescope and the position of power.
http://scienceweek.com/2004/sc040611-1.htm

And to also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good
mathematics would probably get by quite well without you -
of course that is small comfort to the promising careers it
snuffed out and the attendant heartbreak.

How many Milevas and Srinivasas (Ramanujan) have we lost, because they
were
the wrong color or wrong sex? Or just had the wrong ideas? Or had
someone
more accepted by the power structure grab the credit?

Their is unfortunately some truth is what you write - although I do not know
of the detail of the example above. But in Ramanujan's case, as soon as he
became known to a great like Hardy, the walls fell down rather quickly. I
happen to believe great talent rarely if ever goes unnoticed - male or
female. It is those that are not great I worry about. It is well known
that is was not 100% guaranteed Princeton would accept Feynman for his PhD
partly due to him being of Jewish background and partly due to how badly he
performed in tests in areas other than math and science. But MIT knew what
they had - if he was not accepted to complete his PhD elsewhere he would
have been allowed to do it as MIT.

Bill


--
greywolf42
ubi dubium ibi libertas
{remove planet for e-mail}

Bob, what a wonderful post! I will throw out someone Im fond of :
Barbara Shipman. I'm sure some will know who I mean. But the broader list
is very large and crucial, not only for science but for posterity.

I agree it is not clear how good Mileva was. Some claim her personal letters, family
letters, her school records, etc still exist - held in various repositories but NONE
released to date. There are researchers of high integrity following these matters.
We can hope the future will unlock more information of a credible kind. It's in
everyone's interests that this happens.

I have never taken it merely on faithe that just because Mileva was on the scene,
this guaranteed anything. We do know some of the course work Mileva took and passed,
and that alone would seem to suggest she had something more than a passing skill
level in mathematics and physics -
and we know Albert asked Mileva for specifics from some of her course work, which
she relayed back to Albert (verbally and in writing). We just
dont have anything of a concrete mathematical nature to certify what level
of mathematical skills she had. And all we have from Besso is that she
did participate in group discussions of phsyics and philosophy and that
(unlike Albert), she was "of a very practical nature".

It is just my personal opinion, but I think Mileva had at least enough
'conceptual' understanding of the issues at stake at the time, that she
was able to discuss issues of physics with Albert on some level, and he with her
likewise, and there are numerous references to such exchanges between them on some
level, in their private lives. Their private lives were very private. Their close
friend Besso commented and confirmed this.

But whether Mileva contributed mathematically is an unsolved question
which can only be solved by obtaining records of her school work and
anything of a mathematical nature she did. Again, there are those who claim
Mileva documents still exist and I wish they would produce them!

I also think it is very important to understand, it was Albert who saw
SR and GR through to a finish in publication, and defended it - which
testifies to his true skills. That Mileva did not do and probably could not
have done - ever. (She may never have aspired to such heights! Albert
certainly did and it was in his makeup to do this if he could.)

Lastly, it is interesting to contrast Mileva with Albert's second wife. They
could not have been more different. They competed directly (socially) several times,
and Albert took up with this woman while still attached (in Mileva's
mind) to Mileva and their children. The woman had no intellectual capacity
whatever, compared to Mileva, and Mileva spoke openly about this (as
did everyone else, including people visiting Albert at Princeton years later).
It is strange that Mileva is given full credit for having a powerful mind when
the subject is a comparison to Albert's second wife, but then any further
consideration of this evaporates (conveniently) and she suddenly becomes
"that barbarian Mileva"! This equation is serving too many conflicting ends?

Jack












"robert j. kolker" wrote:

greywolf42 wrote:

Her name was Emmy, not Emily. I know that many Relativists mistake her
name. But then some also think that "Noether" was a man. Because even
modern bigots have a hard time believing that women can do math.
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Yq...1.onemai n.co
m

From a biographical site.

Emmy Amalie Noether

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Born: 23 March 1882 in Erlangen, Bavaria, Germany
Died: 14 April 1935 in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, USA

the URL is

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~his...ther_Emmy.html

Emily is just the English way of spelling Amilie.

It was symptomatic of the time that men resented women in the
mathematics profession. David Hilbert had to lecture his men students at
Geottingen to remind them that it was a university and not a locker
room. Hilbert made it possible for Emmy Amalie Noether to teach at
Geottingen where she made many important contributions. Her theorem
associating the symmetries of the Langrangian density functional with
conserved quantities is of the utmost importance in physics. She also
made many other contributions to algebra.

Emmy Amilie Noether had to leave Germany in 1933 because she was a Jew.
Germany's loss was Brynmawr's gain when she came to the U.S. to teach.

In spite of Hilbert's lectures many of the men at the university
referred to her as Das Noether, a rather unflattering use of the neutral
definite article in German. Emmy Amilie Noether did not possess feminine
physical beauty in any great amount. So she was referred to abusively.

Or you have a male patron in the power structure, who likes the answers you
get.

But if you have a male opponent in the power structure (for whatever
reason), you are SOL. Even today. Look at the 1974 nobel prize for
discovery of a the first neutron star (in the Crab nebula). The discovery
was made by Jocelyn Bell. The award (and all the credit) was given to
Hewish, when Hewish had nothing to do with the work or ideas. He simply
"owned" the radio telescope and the position of power.
http://scienceweek.com/2004/sc040611-1.htm

A wretched happening. A similar thing happened to Rosalyn Franklin who
was as instrumental as Watson and Crick in the discovery of DNA. It was
her expertise in X-Ray diffraction imaging that spotted the double
helix. Watson and Crick did not give her any of the credit she deserved.



And to also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good
mathematics would probably get by quite well without you -
of course that is small comfort to the promising careers it
snuffed out and the attendant heartbreak.


How many Milevas and Srinivasas (Ramanujan) have we lost, because they were
the wrong color or wrong sex? Or just had the wrong ideas? Or had someone
more accepted by the power structure grab the credit?

Ramanujan was not lost. G.H.Hardy found him and brought him to
Cambridge. To this day mathematicians are mining treasures from his
work. I would rate him in the top five mathematicians of the post
Alexandrian era (from about 100 c.e. to the present). Ramanujan was not
mistreated but he was not fully appreciated and understood. His mind did
not run in conventional linear-logical manner so it was hard for more
conventional mathematicians to figure out just how he got his results.
Ramanujan did not always use picture perfect logic in deriving his
theorems but he was rarely wrong.

It is not clear how good Mileva was. Her career was done in by marriage
and motherhood. One can speculate but one will never know.

Whereas with Emmy Amilie Noether there is not doubt whatsoever of her
talent. She proved herself in a rather hostile environment. Another
female physicist, Lisa Meitner was also under estimated. She had two
things going against her; her gender and the fact she was Jewish. She
had to get out of Germany to save her skin. Never the less Otto Hahn had
the gall to pick her brains even while she was in exile. Meitner had as
much as anyone to do with the discovery of a sustainable fissioning
process for uranium.

Bob Kolker

"Bill Hobba" wrote in message
...

"greywolf42" wrote in message
...
"Bill Hobba" wrote in message
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What you say is of course true and a terrible inditement on the age.
But to be balanced one must look at cases where superb
mathematical talent won by its own merit - eg Emily Noether.

Her name was Emmy, not Emily. I know that many Relativists mistake her
name. But then some also think that "Noether" was a man. Because even
modern bigots have a hard time believing that women can do math.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Yq...1.onemai n.co
m

So to say they had no hope is
not quite true - you just had to be so damn good your sex did not
matter.

Or you have a male patron in the power structure, who likes the answers
you get.

But if you have a male opponent in the power structure (for whatever
reason), you are SOL. Even today. Look at the 1974 nobel prize for
discovery of a the first neutron star (in the Crab nebula). The
discovery was made by Jocelyn Bell. The award (and all the credit)
was given to Hewish, when Hewish had nothing to do with the work
or ideas. He simply "owned" the radio telescope and the position
of power. http://scienceweek.com/2004/sc040611-1.htm

And to also
be fair it is often remarked that unless you are that damn good
mathematics would probably get by quite well without you -
of course that is small comfort to the promising careers it
snuffed out and the attendant heartbreak.

How many Milevas and Srinivasas (Ramanujan) have we lost, because they
were the wrong color or wrong sex? Or just had the wrong ideas? Or had
someone more accepted by the power structure grab the credit?

Their is unfortunately some truth is what you write - although I do not
know of the detail of the example above. But in Ramanujan's case,
as soon as he became known to a great like Hardy, the walls fell
down rather quickly.

So long as he licked the boots of the English. Who dragged him away from
his home and culture. Simply to raise their own status. And the English
weather and food slowly killed Ramanujan. Because "good" old Hardy couldn't
believe that Ramanujan could do math in India. He had to be 'converted' to
an Englishman.

I
happen to believe great talent rarely if ever goes unnoticed - male or
female.

Belief is wonderful ... in church. It is mere wishful thinking in the real
world.

It is those that are not great I worry about. It is well known
that is was not 100% guaranteed Princeton would accept Feynman for his PhD
partly due to him being of Jewish background and partly due to how badly
he performed in tests in areas other than math and science. But MIT knew
what they had - if he was not accepted to complete his PhD elsewhere he
would have been allowed to do it as MIT.

But he *was* white and male. How many nonwhite Feynmans were missed?

--
greywolf42
ubi dubium ibi libertas
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