(Bilge) wrote in message ...
Donald Hamilton:
Did inertia, gravity, EME, chemistry, etc. exist before the Big Bang?


No. In particular, prior to about 10^-14 seconds following the
big bang there were just two forces, gravity and the fields in
which the strong, weak and EM interactions were a single force.
At that point there were no massive particles. Following that,
there were still no massive particles until the electroweak
symmetry was broken, generating the quark and lepton masses along
with the weak and electromagnetic force. This all happened
prior to the first nsec. It was too hot for chemistry until
the universe was about 500,000 years old. A book which gives
a pretty good account of all of this is ``The First Three Minutes'',
Weinberg, Steven.

Since the BB was a physical event there must have been some physical
laws in place before, for the event to occur - don't you think.

Donald Hamilton wrote:

(Bilge) wrote in message ...
Donald Hamilton:
Did inertia, gravity, EME, chemistry, etc. exist before the Big Bang?


No. In particular, prior to about 10^-14 seconds following the
big bang there were just two forces, gravity and the fields in
which the strong, weak and EM interactions were a single force.
At that point there were no massive particles. Following that,
there were still no massive particles until the electroweak
symmetry was broken, generating the quark and lepton masses along
with the weak and electromagnetic force. This all happened
prior to the first nsec. It was too hot for chemistry until
the universe was about 500,000 years old. A book which gives
a pretty good account of all of this is ``The First Three Minutes'',
Weinberg, Steven.

Since the BB was a physical event there must have been some physical
laws in place before, for the event to occur - don't you think.

The big bang is a singularity in non-quantum physics. There
don't have to be any laws in place since the theory predicts
a singularity.

John Anderson

Donald Hamilton wrote:
(Bilge) wrote in message ...

Donald Hamilton:
Did inertia, gravity, EME, chemistry, etc. exist before the Big Bang?


No. In particular, prior to about 10^-14 seconds following the
big bang there were just two forces, gravity and the fields in
which the strong, weak and EM interactions were a single force.
At that point there were no massive particles. Following that,
there were still no massive particles until the electroweak
symmetry was broken, generating the quark and lepton masses along
with the weak and electromagnetic force. This all happened
prior to the first nsec. It was too hot for chemistry until
the universe was about 500,000 years old. A book which gives
a pretty good account of all of this is ``The First Three Minutes'',
Weinberg, Steven.


Since the BB was a physical event there must have been some physical
laws in place before, for the event to occur - don't you think.

Not necessarily - if there was no "before"...

And even if there were any laws - why on earth should they have been
the inertia, gravity, EM, chemistry etc. which we know?


Bye,
Bjoern

wrote in message ...
Donald Hamilton wrote:

(Bilge) wrote in message ...
Donald Hamilton:
Did inertia, gravity, EME, chemistry, etc. exist before the Big Bang?


No. In particular, prior to about 10^-14 seconds following the
big bang there were just two forces, gravity and the fields in
which the strong, weak and EM interactions were a single force.
At that point there were no massive particles. Following that,
there were still no massive particles until the electroweak
symmetry was broken, generating the quark and lepton masses along
with the weak and electromagnetic force. This all happened
prior to the first nsec. It was too hot for chemistry until
the universe was about 500,000 years old. A book which gives
a pretty good account of all of this is ``The First Three Minutes'',
Weinberg, Steven.

Since the BB was a physical event there must have been some physical
laws in place before, for the event to occur - don't you think.

The big bang is a singularity in non-quantum physics. There
don't have to be any laws in place since the theory predicts
a singularity.

John Anderson

Nothing in the universe can happen without the framework of the
physical laws to guide them. (unless you take a religious position.)
Is a singularity exempt from the laws of nature?

donham
http://novan.com

In article , says...
Donald Hamilton wrote:

Since the BB was a physical event there must have been some physical
laws in place before, for the event to occur - don't you think.

The big bang is a singularity in non-quantum physics. There
don't have to be any laws in place since the theory predicts
a singularity.

Theories that predict singularities need to be replaced by non-broken
theories. After this is done, the range of matters discussable in
available theory extends into (and maybe past) the regions previously
described as singularities.

Some day, likely enough, there will be a consensus on matters pertaining
to the time now referred to as the Big Bang singularity.

Depending on how that theory considers time, it may or may not have
something to say about what happened before.

- Gerry Quinn

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...
Donald Hamilton wrote:
(Bilge) wrote in message ...

Donald Hamilton:
Did inertia, gravity, EME, chemistry, etc. exist before the Big Bang?


No. In particular, prior to about 10^-14 seconds following the
big bang there were just two forces, gravity and the fields in
which the strong, weak and EM interactions were a single force.
At that point there were no massive particles. Following that,
there were still no massive particles until the electroweak
symmetry was broken, generating the quark and lepton masses along
with the weak and electromagnetic force. This all happened
prior to the first nsec. It was too hot for chemistry until
the universe was about 500,000 years old. A book which gives
a pretty good account of all of this is ``The First Three Minutes'',
Weinberg, Steven.


Since the BB was a physical event there must have been some physical
laws in place before, for the event to occur - don't you think.

Not necessarily - if there was no "before"...

And even if there were any laws - why on earth should they have been
the inertia, gravity, EM, chemistry etc. which we know?


Bye,
Bjoern

Do you think the "laws of nature" change over time? I'm talking about
the laws not the conditions. It would have been a very different
universe without inertia, gravity & electromagnetic energy to guide
matter.

donham
http://novan.com/space.htm

(Donald Hamilton) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message ...
Donald Hamilton wrote:

(Bilge) wrote in message ...
Donald Hamilton:
Did inertia, gravity, EME, chemistry, etc. exist before the Big Bang?


No. In particular, prior to about 10^-14 seconds following the
big bang there were just two forces, gravity and the fields in
which the strong, weak and EM interactions were a single force.
At that point there were no massive particles. Following that,
there were still no massive particles until the electroweak
symmetry was broken, generating the quark and lepton masses along
with the weak and electromagnetic force. This all happened
prior to the first nsec. It was too hot for chemistry until
the universe was about 500,000 years old. A book which gives
a pretty good account of all of this is ``The First Three Minutes'',
Weinberg, Steven.

Since the BB was a physical event there must have been some physical
laws in place before, for the event to occur - don't you think.

The big bang is a singularity in non-quantum physics. There
don't have to be any laws in place since the theory predicts
a singularity.

John Anderson

Nothing in the universe can happen without the framework of the
physical laws to guide them. (unless you take a religious position.)
Is a singularity exempt from the laws of nature?

QM is religous. Since being a probability theory,
it predicts everything. Including that
Einstien was temporally-religous, but
spatially a G short of THE TRUTH.



donham
http://novan.com

Dear Donald Hamilton:

"Donald Hamilton" wrote in message
m...
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message
...
....
And even if there were any laws - why on earth should they have been
the inertia, gravity, EM, chemistry etc. which we know?

Do you think the "laws of nature" change over time? I'm talking about
the laws not the conditions. It would have been a very different
universe without inertia, gravity & electromagnetic energy to guide
matter.

What "matter", without a "relationship" to create it?

David A. Smith

Donald Hamilton wrote:

Nothing in the universe can happen without the framework of the
physical laws to guide them. (unless you take a religious position.)
Is a singularity exempt from the laws of nature?

Actually we make up the laws to describe what we perceive and what we
hypothesize. Nature just IS. It is humans who seek rules to account for
what they know.

Bob Kolker

Donald Hamilton wrote:
Do you think the "laws of nature" change over time? I'm talking about
the laws not the conditions. It would have been a very different
universe without inertia, gravity & electromagnetic energy to guide
matter.

See -The Life of the Cosmos- by Lee Smolin. He conjectures that the
kosmos is evolving and that the "laws of physics" change over time.

Bob Kolker