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Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... Ken S. Tucker wrote: [...] A few comments in respect to your new book... Thank you for your comments. They are very helpful. 1) I'm uncertain whether this length of book is required to introduce an idea that Lorentz transformations are "inexact". - by writing a controversial chapter, the entire book's credibility is based solely on a few pages. (1) The inexactness of Lorentz transformations is only part of my story. (2) Another part is elimination of infinities from QFT and (3) derivation of instantaneous interaction between particles. (1) and (3) are certainly controversial, (3) especially so. GR was (in part) developed to eliminate instanteous gravitational interactions. It's principles are highly respected, I would certainly suggest you understand what you're doing before taking a hard stand ... GR has nothing to do with this. For systems I am considering, gravity can be safely neglected. I also noted you've used "Dr. Flandern" as a reference, that is risky in the GR community, again very controversial. I wrote this book not to please some community, but to find the truth. So, I don't care about controversies. I am fighting against the most sacred idea of modern physics - Minkowski spacetime. All textbooks are based on this idea. I cannot fight a textbook with journal papers. This is like fighting against tank with a rifle. So, I decided to build my own tank - write my own textbook. Well the good thing is, you've consolidated your thinking circa 2004. However (employing military analogy) I won't advise attacking on 3 front's simultaneously in one book, is a trilogy possible? All issues are closely related to each other. So, I see more sense in putting them together. Minkowski spacetime was "adulterated" by Einstein as an introduction to GR, the introductions written about his spacetime in textbooks are a simplified version. In that epoch, tensor analysis applied to dynamic systems was at it's infancy, and crude approximations from that time are often presented as the holy truth, just old habits. Do you believe in Minkowski spacetime in the absence of gravitaion or not? I can formulate my position even stronger: I am against unification of space and time in one 4D continuum and against covariant (tensorial) transformation of observables. However, I do not want to discuss gravity here. I am not ready to do that yet. 2) Is this intended to be a reference, if so a chapter by chapter collaborating opinion would be good. I doubt anyone can review this entire book to ascertain it's quality, because it cover's so much territory. If it's intended as a reference, second party certification helps. I hope to publish this book and go through normal review process. Would you agree to be a referee? Certainly, but only on parts I can effectively comment on, but I'll do that anyway. Thanks. 3) I've noticed other authors clearly delineate convention and speculation, H. Weyl's "Space Time Matter" for example. I tried to do that by distinguishing between Postulates, Statements, and Assertions. Probably, I wasn't too good at that. Do you have any specific suggestions how to improve style? You might present the conventional stand point clear and crisp, but point out the defects, many of which are standard in the literature, that's a good thing, then reference to an appendix for your own point of view. My disagreement with the conventional stand point is too profound to put it in appendix. 4) The objective and purpose of the book are vague, if you are introducing a new theory or concept do you need 400 pages ?! All ideas from the book were published in 3 papers in major journals. You can get online copies on my web-site www.geocities.com/meopemuk. Unfortunately, these papers went largely unnoticed. Yes and to your credit the're peer reviewed. 5) It is my impression you have a superficial exposure to relativity on the basis of excluding how General Relativity forms the basis of "Relativistic Quantum Dynamics". -IMO Special Relativity and Quantum Theory are based on GR, the latter being more difficult and in more need of understanding. This is just another example that when it comes to relativistic quantum theory everyone has his/her own ideas. This just emphasises the need for a book with consistent and logical explanation how relativity and quantum mechanics can coexist together. I disagree with you that GR forms the basis of "Relativistic Quantum Dynamics". I think that we can safely ignore gravity in the absence of large gravitating masses. GR is more about "covariant" equations of motion than merely a theory of gravity. To merge quantum theory and relativity it's easier (imo) to place QT on GR, then at least you start with a covariant foundation for QT. You may notice that manifest covariance is formulated as Assertion F in Chapter 1. This means that this assertion is proven wrong in my theory (see, e.g., section 12.3). I do care about relativistic invariance, though (the difference with manifest or Lorentz covariance is explained on page 27 in chapter 12), i.e., equivalence of all inertial observers, which is mathematically expressed in commutation relations of the Poincare Lie algebra. 6) There's alot of detail in your equations, perhaps too much! -Once after completing a lengthy calculation I presented my hard work to a Prof. It was filled with trig, derivatives etc. He said get to the point, and pointed to E=hv, KISS. You are right, there are probably too much details in derivations of formulas. I wanted to make all proofs crystal clear even for less prepared readers. There is an easy fix for this deficiency - just cross out extra lines. Or just write "it is easy to show that...". Probably, I'll do that in the final version of the book. You may want to place the "detail" in an appendix. 7) Are you imparting understanding, or showing off? I am desperately seeking understanding. Well the ambition of your program verifies that! 8) Check out Weinberg's "Grav & Cosmo". It's highly sophisticated but he has the benefit of being a lecturer and knows how to deliver complex ideas and sustain understanding. That's a hallmark of a successful author. John Baez does this with a different style, adding a bit more entertainment. I wouldn't consider myself a great lecturer or writer. I always admired "Feynman's lectures in physics". Weinberg and Baez are also among my favorite authors. I think it's experience. When I was a teacher it sharpened me up doing lectures, mind if you tell us how old you are? I am 43. You can find my brief CV on http://www.geocities.com/meopemuk I tried to do my best, but it could be not good enough. Besides, English is a second language for me. Won't have noticed, your grammar skills are superior to mine. Thanks. 9) Never deliberately talk "over somebodies head", avoid that. The author is a leader, and the lead cannot be lead faster than they can be lead! Thanks for the advice. 10) Lot's of potential, get more opinions. Ken S. Tucker Eugene. |
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Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ...
Ken S. Tucker wrote: GR was (in part) developed to eliminate instanteous gravitational interactions. It's principles are highly respected, I would certainly suggest you understand what you're doing before taking a hard stand ... GR has nothing to do with this. For systems I am considering, gravity can be safely neglected. Regarding the issue of *instanteous* field propagation, such as Newton requires, GR is consistent with a finite rate of propagation, as specified by SR. I also noted you've used "Dr. Flandern" as a reference, that is risky in the GR community, again very controversial. I wrote this book not to please some community, but to find the truth. So, I don't care about controversies. Well, by invoking instanteous propagation, you're suggesting a return to a pre-SR/GR point of view, you should care, a lot has happened since then. Minkowski spacetime was "adulterated" by Einstein as an introduction to GR, the introductions written about his spacetime in textbooks are a simplified version. In that epoch, tensor analysis applied to dynamic systems was at it's infancy, and crude approximations from that time are often presented as the holy truth, just old habits. Do you believe in Minkowski spacetime in the absence of gravitaion or not? I can formulate my position even stronger: I am against unification of space and time in one 4D continuum and against covariant (tensorial) transformation of observables. That's practically a denial of much of relativity, the title of your book "relativistic..." implies accepting the usual principles of relativity. However, I do not want to discuss gravity here. I am not ready to do that yet. Are you very familiar with GR? My disagreement with the conventional stand point is too profound to put it in appendix. There are a lot of defects in the conventional stand point, the ones you're finding should be explained and a correction suggested. GR is more about "covariant" equations of motion than merely a theory of gravity. To merge quantum theory and relativity it's easier (imo) to place QT on GR, then at least you start with a covariant foundation for QT. You may notice that manifest covariance is formulated as Assertion F in Chapter 1. This means that this assertion is proven wrong in my theory (see, e.g., section 12.3). I do care about relativistic invariance, though (the difference with manifest or Lorentz covariance is explained on page 27 in chapter 12), i.e., equivalence of all inertial observers, which is mathematically expressed in commutation relations of the Poincare Lie algebra. Yes I did read that, would you to comment on this post, From: Ken S. Tucker ) Subject: Geodesic Definition Newsgroups: sci.physics.research Date: 2003-05-06 10:36:32 PST about photons atoms and relativity. Ken S. Tucker |
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Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... Ken S. Tucker wrote: GR was (in part) developed to eliminate instanteous gravitational interactions. It's principles are highly respected, I would certainly suggest you understand what you're doing before taking a hard stand ... GR has nothing to do with this. For systems I am considering, gravity can be safely neglected. Regarding the issue of *instanteous* field propagation, such as Newton requires, GR is consistent with a finite rate of propagation, as specified by SR. The whole point of my book is that rigorous understanding of relativity (without Einstein's arbitrary assumption of universality of Lorentz transformations) requires instantaneous propagation of interactions (see section 12.3). My claim is that Einsteinian presentation of relativity (with universal tensor transformations of observables and Minkowski space-time) is approximate. It can only be justified for systems with weak interactions. In general case, boost transformations of observables depend on the interaction and on the state of the system. GR is fully based on the Minkowski space-time picture. The space-time just becomes curved and twisted, still retaining its status as universal "background". For this reason I reject GR treatment of gravity right from the beginning. However, I do not want to open this can of worms. Let us stay away from GR and gravity, and focus on pure electromagnetic effects. I also noted you've used "Dr. Flandern" as a reference, that is risky in the GR community, again very controversial. I wrote this book not to please some community, but to find the truth. So, I don't care about controversies. Well, by invoking instanteous propagation, you're suggesting a return to a pre-SR/GR point of view, you should care, a lot has happened since then. Well, science sometimes make unexpected turns and returns to long forgotten ideas. My book should convince you that I am well familiar with SR and QM developments in the 20th century (could we stay away from GR, please?). And still, I maintain that SR view of the world must be corrected and Newtonian instantaneous interactions restored in their respected status. Minkowski spacetime was "adulterated" by Einstein as an introduction to GR, the introductions written about his spacetime in textbooks are a simplified version. In that epoch, tensor analysis applied to dynamic systems was at it's infancy, and crude approximations from that time are often presented as the holy truth, just old habits. Do you believe in Minkowski spacetime in the absence of gravitaion or not? I can formulate my position even stronger: I am against unification of space and time in one 4D continuum and against covariant (tensorial) transformation of observables. That's practically a denial of much of relativity, the title of your book "relativistic..." implies accepting the usual principles of relativity. You may notice that I respect the principle of relativity (This is Postulate A in subsection 1.1.1), I even derive the invariance of the speed of light (Statement B in subsection 1.1.2). So, I consider my approach perfectly relativistic. What I do not accept is the assumption (Assertion D in subsection 1.2.1) tacitly made in each textbook since Einstein. This assertion claims that Lorentz transformations (rigorously derived for light pulses, and probably for non-interacting particles) can be exactly and universally applied to all kinds of systems. I do not accept this assertion, and build my theory without it, and prove it wrong. My claim is that usual approach postulating kinematical character of boosts is not relativistic, because it violates the commutation relations of the Poincare group. However, I do not want to discuss gravity here. I am not ready to do that yet. Are you very familiar with GR? Yes, I am familiar with GR, but I do not want to discuss it here, because it would just complicate the matter without adding much insight. Let us first deal with what you call "flat space-time". My disagreement with the conventional stand point is too profound to put it in appendix. There are a lot of defects in the conventional stand point, the ones you're finding should be explained and a correction suggested. That's what my book is about. GR is more about "covariant" equations of motion than merely a theory of gravity. To merge quantum theory and relativity it's easier (imo) to place QT on GR, then at least you start with a covariant foundation for QT. You may notice that manifest covariance is formulated as Assertion F in Chapter 1. This means that this assertion is proven wrong in my theory (see, e.g., section 12.3). I do care about relativistic invariance, though (the difference with manifest or Lorentz covariance is explained on page 27 in chapter 12), i.e., equivalence of all inertial observers, which is mathematically expressed in commutation relations of the Poincare Lie algebra. Yes I did read that, would you to comment on this post, From: Ken S. Tucker ) Subject: Geodesic Definition Newsgroups: sci.physics.research Date: 2003-05-06 10:36:32 PST about photons atoms and relativity. Ken S. Tucker Could you please reproduce this post. I cannot see sci.physics.research at this early date. Thanks. Eugene. |
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Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ...
Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... Ken S. Tucker wrote: GR was (in part) developed to eliminate instanteous gravitational interactions. It's principles are highly respected, I would certainly suggest you understand what you're doing before taking a hard stand ... GR has nothing to do with this. For systems I am considering, gravity can be safely neglected. Regarding the issue of *instanteous* field propagation, such as Newton requires, GR is consistent with a finite rate of propagation, as specified by SR. The whole point of my book is that rigorous understanding of relativity (without Einstein's arbitrary assumption of universality of Lorentz transformations) requires instantaneous propagation of interactions (see section 12.3). Paraphrased...(1) "The whole point of my book ... requires instantaneous propagation of interactions." Eugene, have you worked to consider finite propagation theory? ((You're quite young, perhaps your works could merge that finding)). My claim is that Einsteinian presentation of relativity (with universal tensor transformations of observables and Minkowski space-time) is approximate. I think every GRist understands an idealized gedanken. In practical applications better understanding is obtained when the specific charges relating photons to measurement are accounted for, but the level of detail usually bores everybody. It can only be justified for systems with weak interactions. In general case, boost transformations of observables depend on the interaction and on the state of the system. GR is fully based on the Minkowski space-time picture. No it's not, as I explained the math AE used, used Minkowski as a crude approximation in the absence of gravitation, but the principles of GR stand independent of math assumptions. I've found better ways to do the fundamental mathematics of GR, but in no way changed the General Theory of Relativity. I understand I had an opportunity to learn tensors at age 16. while Einstein didn't study them until age 30+, and even then applications to dynamic systems were in the infancy. The space-time just becomes curved and twisted, still retaining its status as universal "background". For this reason I reject GR treatment of gravity (2) right from the beginning. However, I do not want to open this can of worms. Your statement (1) above rejects SR, your statement (2) rejects GR, then you pronounce GR a "can of worms", please recall this NG consists of many experts on relativity, do you really expect your book to be warmly embraced? Let us stay away from GR and gravity, and focus on pure electromagnetic effects. That's hard to do. How can one have a "pure" electromagnetic effect" when unification is considered? And why are we avoiding GR. GR IS NOT GRAVITY...IT is the foundation of relativity! Well, by invoking instanteous propagation, you're suggesting a return to a pre-SR/GR point of view, you should care, a lot has happened since then. Well, science sometimes make unexpected turns and returns to long forgotten ideas. My book should convince you that I am well familiar with SR and QM developments in the 20th century (could we stay away from GR, please?). Sir, I will reiterate. We looked long and hard for 3 centuries on how to make instanteous force work, (Newtons Gravity), defects occurred, and GR helped to explain why. Albiet some subtle and even now controversial problems exist with the mathematics of GR, that's why GP-b and LIGO are being done, to refine the math and theory. Everything we know to date, I find supports field theories expressed with finite rate propagators, and while I find virtual particles distasteful, it fills the gap in our theoretical ignorance, until a good QT field theory or something else clears things up, if ever that will happen. And still, I maintain that SR view of the world must be corrected and Newtonian instantaneous interactions restored in their respected status. How to lose friends and gain enemies in an NG entitled "Relativity". If you're half as intelligent as we think you are, then the least you could do is understand GR, then shoot down the dead wood. That's practically a denial of much of relativity, the title of your book "relativistic..." implies accepting the usual principles of relativity. You may notice that I respect the principle of relativity (This is Postulate A in subsection 1.1.1), I even derive the invariance of the speed of light (Statement B in subsection 1.1.2). So, I consider my approach perfectly relativistic. What I do not accept is the assumption (Assertion D in subsection 1.2.1) tacitly made in each textbook since Einstein. This assertion claims that Lorentz transformations (rigorously derived for light pulses, and probably for non-interacting particles) can be exactly and universally applied to all kinds of systems. I do not accept this assertion, and build my theory without it, and prove it wrong. My claim is that usual approach postulating kinematical character of boosts is not relativistic, because it violates the commutation relations of the Poincare group. However, I do not want to discuss gravity here. I am not ready to do that yet. Are you very familiar with GR? Yes, I am familiar with GR, but I do not want to discuss it here, because it would just complicate the matter without adding much insight. Let us first deal with what you call "flat space-time". Intrusion of a mere "charge couple" disturbs spacetime sufficiently to include that consideration when physical law is considered. Yes I did read that, would you to comment on this post, From: Ken S. Tucker ) Subject: Geodesic Definition Newsgroups: sci.physics.research Date: 2003-05-06 10:36:32 PST about photons atoms and relativity. Ken S. Tucker Could you please reproduce this post. I cannot see sci.physics.research at this early date. Thanks. Eugene. You're welcome. I must say I'm a bit worried about a man of your young age and high intelligence making such strict decisions at variance with alot of good (and some bad) work, by dismissing a century of genius. Regards Ken S. TUcker |
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Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... Ken S. Tucker wrote: GR was (in part) developed to eliminate instanteous gravitational interactions. It's principles are highly respected, I would certainly suggest you understand what you're doing before taking a hard stand ... GR has nothing to do with this. For systems I am considering, gravity can be safely neglected. Regarding the issue of *instanteous* field propagation, such as Newton requires, GR is consistent with a finite rate of propagation, as specified by SR. The whole point of my book is that rigorous understanding of relativity (without Einstein's arbitrary assumption of universality of Lorentz transformations) requires instantaneous propagation of interactions (see section 12.3). Paraphrased...(1) "The whole point of my book ... requires instantaneous propagation of interactions." In your paraphrase you forgot to include "rigorous understanding of relativity requires..." I think this part is important. Instantaneous propagation is not an assumption it is a result. Eugene, have you worked to consider finite propagation theory? ((You're quite young, perhaps your works could merge that finding)). Hmm, I wrote a whole book to prove this point. Now you are asking me to write another book and contradict my own findings. That's quite a challenge! My claim is that Einsteinian presentation of relativity (with universal tensor transformations of observables and Minkowski space-time) is approximate. I think every GRist understands an idealized gedanken. In practical applications better understanding is obtained when the specific charges relating photons to measurement are accounted for, but the level of detail usually bores everybody. Sorry, I missed your point here. Could you please rephrase your statement. It can only be justified for systems with weak interactions. In general case, boost transformations of observables depend on the interaction and on the state of the system. GR is fully based on the Minkowski space-time picture. No it's not, as I explained the math AE used, used Minkowski as a crude approximation in the absence of gravitation, but the principles of GR stand independent of math assumptions. I've found better ways to do the fundamental mathematics of GR, but in no way changed the General Theory of Relativity. I understand I had an opportunity to learn tensors at age 16. while Einstein didn't study them until age 30+, and even then applications to dynamic systems were in the infancy. I always thought that space-time in GR is just the same 4D Minkowski continuum, just curved, i.e., with non-trivial metric tensor. The curvature is dependent on gravitating masses, or energy-momentum tensor of the matter. If there is not much matter around, then the space-time continuumm is flat, the metric tensor is (-1, 1, 1, 1) and we can use old good SR for all means and purposes. The space-time just becomes curved and twisted, still retaining its status as universal "background". For this reason I reject GR treatment of gravity (2) right from the beginning. However, I do not want to open this can of worms. Your statement (1) above rejects SR, Please understand me that I do not reject SR. Universal linear Lorentz transformations, and even Minkowski space-time may be a good approximation for most systems. My corrections to SR predictions are miniscule, with the exception of instantaneous propagation of interactions, which still awaits experimental test. SR captures 99.999% of relativistic effects. I am arguing about SR's pretense that these 99.999% is full, accurate, entire, and complete truth. My point is that Minkowski space-time is rigorously justified ONLY if SR accounts for 100% of the truth. The 0.001% of difference I've discovered, undermines the universality of the Minkowski space-time and therefore the entire idea. your statement (2) rejects GR, Again, I do not reject GR. GR could be a fine computational approach, which, probably, can account for 99.999% of observable effects in gravity. I just don't know much about GR. What I know is that GR uses the same idea of universal "background" space-time as SR. I showed that this idea is not more than approximation (though a good one). I am against pretending that curved space-time is exact and final truth. then you pronounce GR a "can of worms", I choose this expression not to diminish GR, which I respect very much. I choose this expression because I am not that familiar with GR (I know a lot about it, but not enough to withstand your attack, I think). So, I don't want you to start asking me questions about GR and gravity, for which I don't have answers. I think we can perfectly confine our discussion to the world without gravity, where I feel myself safer. please recall this NG consists of many experts on relativity, do you really expect your book to be warmly embraced? I don't expect it to be warmly embraced. I do wish that the arguments I put forward are seriously considered, discussed, and judged on their merits. If you have some arguments related to the substance of the book, rather than to "political correctness" I am happy to discuss them. Let us stay away from GR and gravity, and focus on pure electromagnetic effects. That's hard to do. How can one have a "pure" electromagnetic effect" when unification is considered? And why are we avoiding GR. GR IS NOT GRAVITY...IT is the foundation of relativity! Do we need GR to predict Lamb's shifts or scattering cross-sections of charged particles? Well, by invoking instanteous propagation, you're suggesting a return to a pre-SR/GR point of view, you should care, a lot has happened since then. Well, science sometimes make unexpected turns and returns to long forgotten ideas. My book should convince you that I am well familiar with SR and QM developments in the 20th century (could we stay away from GR, please?). Sir, I will reiterate. We looked long and hard for 3 centuries on how to make instanteous force work, (Newtons Gravity), defects occurred, and GR helped to explain why. Albiet some subtle and even now controversial problems exist with the mathematics of GR, that's why GP-b and LIGO are being done, to refine the math and theory. Can we skip discussion of gravity, please? Everything we know to date, I find supports field theories expressed with finite rate propagators, Let us take QED. Could you please show me a reference in which retarded propagation of electromagnetic intearaction is demonstrated in the formalism of QED. I am talking about direct solution of a simple two-particle problem: two charged particles A and B are at a distance R from each other; some external impact changes the trajectory of particle A; when particle B will feel this change? after time R/c or immediately. I know several papers where this problem is approached, but in my view they are not correct. If you like I can give you references. I suppose you know other better works, because you are so confident that QED predicts retarded propagation of interactions. Please do not try to use in your argument things like (anti)commutativity of fields at space-like separations. These properties have no relationship to the problem I am talking about. In my view, QED cannot say anything about the speed of propagation of interaction, because 1) There is no well-defined Hamiltonian in QED. The Hamiltonian in QED is plagued by infinite counterterms. 2) Without well-defined Hamiltonian, there is no way to calculate time evolution of interacting system. 3) Without direct calculation of time evolution you cannot say whether interaction is retarded or instantaneous. Note that the absence of well-defined Hamitonian in QED does not prevent it from obtaining very accurate S-matrix (in which the time evolution is integrated over infinite time interval). This is all in my book and while I find virtual particles distasteful, it fills the gap in our theoretical ignorance, The virtual particles are not just distasteful, they are useless. I built alternative QED formalism which 1) does not have virtual particles 2) does not have ultraviolet divergences heither in the S-matrix nor in the Hamiltonian 3) predicts exactly the same S-matrix (=all experimental observations to date) as standard QED. 4) Has well defined Hamiltonian and can predict time evolution. until a good QT field theory or something else clears things up, if ever that will happen. That just happened! Read my book. And still, I maintain that SR view of the world must be corrected and Newtonian instantaneous interactions restored in their respected status. How to lose friends and gain enemies in an NG entitled "Relativity". If you're half as intelligent as we think you are, then the least you could do is understand GR, then shoot down the dead wood. Could we discuss my arguments in the book rather than my intelligence? That's practically a denial of much of relativity, the title of your book "relativistic..." implies accepting the usual principles of relativity. You may notice that I respect the principle of relativity (This is Postulate A in subsection 1.1.1), I even derive the invariance of the speed of light (Statement B in subsection 1.1.2). So, I consider my approach perfectly relativistic. What I do not accept is the assumption (Assertion D in subsection 1.2.1) tacitly made in each textbook since Einstein. This assertion claims that Lorentz transformations (rigorously derived for light pulses, and probably for non-interacting particles) can be exactly and universally applied to all kinds of systems. I do not accept this assertion, and build my theory without it, and prove it wrong. My claim is that usual approach postulating kinematical character of boosts is not relativistic, because it violates the commutation relations of the Poincare group. However, I do not want to discuss gravity here. I am not ready to do that yet. Are you very familiar with GR? Yes, I am familiar with GR, but I do not want to discuss it here, because it would just complicate the matter without adding much insight. Let us first deal with what you call "flat space-time". Intrusion of a mere "charge couple" disturbs spacetime sufficiently to include that consideration when physical law is considered. I repeat my question: where is the need for GR when we calculate the spectrum of the hydrogen atom or Compton scattering? I'll help you with the answer: Nowhere. Yes I did read that, would you to comment on this post, From: Ken S. Tucker ) Subject: Geodesic Definition Newsgroups: sci.physics.research Date: 2003-05-06 10:36:32 PST about photons atoms and relativity. Ken S. Tucker Could you please reproduce this post. I cannot see sci.physics.research at this early date. Thanks. Eugene. You're welcome. I must say I'm a bit worried about a man of your young age and high intelligence making such strict decisions at variance with alot of good (and some bad) work, by dismissing a century of genius. I disagree with you here. I think that I understand SR, QM, and QFT pretty well. The list of references in the book should convince you that I am staying current with the literature. I incorporated work of lot of geniuses in my book: Einstein, Dirac, Weinberg, to name a few. If you have any specific substantive comments on what I have done, I would welcome it. If you see any gaps in my postulates or my logic, I would like to know it. If you want to simply dismiss what I have done because it disagrees with accepted "wisdom", that's your choice. Regards Ken S. TUcker |
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Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ...
Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... [...] Eugene, have you worked to consider finite propagation theory? ((You're quite young, perhaps your works could merge that finding)). Hmm, I wrote a whole book to prove this point. Now you are asking me to write another book and contradict my own findings. That's quite a challenge! I'm suggesting your FTL requirement/prediction (FTL=Faster Than Light) contradicts a great deal of theory and experiment. You would need some hard data or some experiment to prove that. You're theory is on very unsafe grounds without that. I think every GRist understands an idealized gedanken. In practical applications better understanding is obtained when the specific charges relating photons to measurement are accounted for, but the level of detail usually bores everybody. Sorry, I missed your point here. Could you please rephrase your statement. Well a photon can't be *measured* to move from one *point* to another. We really need an emitter and detector at each end. GR is fully based on the Minkowski space-time picture. No it's not, as I explained the math AE used, used Minkowski as a crude approximation in the absence of gravitation, but the principles of GR stand independent of math assumptions. I always thought that space-time in GR is just the same 4D Minkowski continuum, just curved, i.e., with non-trivial metric tensor. The curvature is dependent on gravitating masses, or energy-momentum tensor of the matter. If there is not much matter around, then the space-time continuumm is flat, the metric tensor is (-1, 1, 1, 1) and we can use old good SR for all means and purposes. Hmmm, let me demo how GR predicts Quantum Theory. SR excluded absolute velocity. GR excluded absolute acceleration. When you're predicting the motion of particles and their measurement these Principles of Special and General Relativity must be included or denied, I'll include them. For example, GR impacts Lorentz force to produce the following problem...Lorentz force is defined by, f_u = q*F_uv U^v q=charge, F_uv is EM field tensor, U^v is four velocity. Since f_u is a tensor, if it is non-zero in one FoR (Frame of Reference) then it is non zero in all FoR's. However that means f_u is a force/acceleration that is "absolute" as no FoR can be found where the acceleration is zero. But that contradicts GR! GR requires, f_u = 0, ie. absolute acceleration vanishes in all FoR's. f_u are components of a force vector and we can re-write, f_u = f*U_u and it follows from f_u=0 and U_0 =/=0 that f=0. That provides a basis for the Quantum Theory. Consider, 0 = f_0 = q*f_01 U^1 == q*E.V = 0 where E is Electric field and V is Velocity. Note the constraint on the "motion" of charge q in the E-field, (I call that a quantum geodesic for short). It specifically prevents a charge from continuously moving in the direction of the E-field. That in turn predicts charge "q" cannot continuously vary in energy, IOW's an electron cannot spiral into a central nucleus, it is constrained to move in quantized fashion by GR requiring Lorentz force to vanish. (I have ref's if anybody wants). The point is GR unifies EM and QT, it's much more than gravity. [...] Please understand me that I do not reject SR. Universal linear Lorentz transformations, and even Minkowski space-time may be a good approximation for most systems. My corrections to SR predictions are miniscule, with the exception of instantaneous propagation of interactions, That's a BIG exception. which still awaits experimental test. SR captures 99.999% of relativistic effects. I am arguing about SR's pretense that these 99.999% is full, accurate, entire, and complete truth. My point is that Minkowski space-time is rigorously justified ONLY if SR accounts for 100% of the truth. The 0.001% of difference I've discovered, undermines the universality of the Minkowski space-time and therefore the entire idea. SR has been superseded by GR in 1914. your statement (2) rejects GR, Again, I do not reject GR. GR could be a fine computational approach, which, probably, can account for 99.999% of observable effects in gravity. I just don't know much about GR. What I know is that GR uses the same idea of universal "background" space-time as SR. I showed that this idea is not more than approximation (though a good one). I am against pretending that curved space-time is exact and final truth. Good, curved spacetime is an analogy, I've showed above GR is much more deeper than that. I choose this expression not to diminish GR, which I respect very much. I choose this expression because I am not that familiar with GR (I know a lot about it, but not enough to withstand your attack, I think). So, I don't want you to start asking me questions about GR and gravity, for which I don't have answers. I think we can perfectly confine our discussion to the world without gravity, where I feel myself safer. You don't want to "feel" safe, the laws of nature aren't warm and fuzzy, people die and risk health and fortunes to get a bit more insight. Do we need GR to predict Lamb's shifts or scattering cross-sections of charged particles? It would surprise me if you don't. With all due respect, a 4 year old does not need to know electrical and quantum theory to know flicking a switch on a wall makes light. It all depends how refined you want unified field theory. Everything we know to date, I find supports field theories expressed with finite rate propagators, Let us take QED. Could you please show me a reference in which retarded propagation of electromagnetic intearaction is demonstrated in the formalism of QED. I am talking about direct solution of a simple two-particle problem: two charged particles A and B are at a distance R from each other; some external impact changes the trajectory of particle A; when particle B will feel this change? Ah that's 3 particles. I'm assuming the inbound particle is a photon, and particle A and B represent a dipole able to react with the photon, then A and B will react at the same time, they behave as one particle like an atom of hydrogen absorbing a photon. The electromagnetic gain in energy is the same for the electron and the proton and is simultaneous. after time R/c or immediately. Immediately. [...] Please do not try to use in your argument things like (anti)commutativity of fields at space-like separations. These properties have no relationship to the problem I am talking about. Ok, not yet. In my view, QED cannot say anything about the speed of propagation of interaction, because 1) There is no well-defined Hamiltonian in QED. The Hamiltonian in QED is plagued by infinite counterterms. 2) Without well-defined Hamiltonian, there is no way to calculate time evolution of interacting system. 3) Without direct calculation of time evolution you cannot say whether interaction is retarded or instantaneous. Or (4) there is no problem. [...] Intrusion of a mere "charge couple" disturbs spacetime sufficiently to include that consideration when physical law is considered. I repeat my question: where is the need for GR when we calculate the spectrum of the hydrogen atom or Compton scattering? I'll help you with the answer: Nowhere. Steve Bell has posted some research in sci.physics, about that. I suggest you google him and/or email him about GR and electron orbitals. As I demo'd GR is fundamental to QT, just depends on depth. From: Ken S. Tucker ) Subject: Geodesic Definition Newsgroups: sci.physics.research Date: 2003-05-06 10:36:32 PST about photons atoms and relativity. Ken S. Tucker Could you please reproduce this post. I cannot see sci.physics.research at this early date. Just go to the group and use search. You're welcome. I must say I'm a bit worried about a man of your young age and high intelligence making such strict decisions at variance with alot of good (and some bad) work, by dismissing a century of genius. I disagree with you here. I think that I understand SR, QM, and QFT pretty well. The list of references in the book should convince you that I am staying current with the literature. I incorporated work of lot of geniuses in my book: Einstein, Dirac, Weinberg, to name a few. If you have any specific substantive comments on what I have done, I would welcome it. If you see any gaps in my postulates or my logic, I would like to know it. If you want to simply dismiss what I have done because it disagrees with accepted "wisdom", that's your choice. The fellows you mention above have internally consistent theory's logically interlaced, one cannot take a bit of relativity (Lorentz) and discard the unwanted (light limit), and declare FTL interaction as based on any of Einstein's refs. Regards Ken S. Tucker |
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Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... Ken S. Tucker wrote: Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... [...] Eugene, have you worked to consider finite propagation theory? ((You're quite young, perhaps your works could merge that finding)). Hmm, I wrote a whole book to prove this point. Now you are asking me to write another book and contradict my own findings. That's quite a challenge! I'm suggesting your FTL requirement/prediction (FTL=Faster Than Light) contradicts a great deal of theory As I wrote in the preceding posting, FTL interactions contradict j ust one "postulate" of the old theory, i.e., the universality of Lorentz transformations. I also listed there all postulates I used in my book, and mentioned that the "Lorentz universality" postulate contradicts other postulates and not needed to construct viable theory. Without this postulate, a fully consistent theory of particles and their interactions can be constructed which agrees with all experimental measurements performed so far and predicts a great deal of new effects (everything related to time-dependent dynamics is completely omitted in standard QED, and can be represented in my approach) and experiment. I looked very hard for credible experiment which directly proves the retarded character of interactions between charged particles. Couldn't find one. If you know such an experiment, please let me know as well. The measurement of the speed of propagation of the Coulomb and magnetic forces is not as simple as it appears. So, I believe, it has not been done yet. Of course, the speed of propagation of electromagnetic waves is c. Nobody disputes that. But in my approach, electromagnetic wave is just a flow of photons, and it is not directly related to the (Coulomb and magnetic) interaction between charged particles. You would need some hard data or some experiment to prove that. You're theory is on very unsafe grounds without that. That's right. That's the weakest point of my theory. So, far there is no experiment in which the differences between my approach and traditional QFT can be seen. My best bet is the measurements of the speed of propagation of interaction between charged particles. I think it is doable, if experimentalists really jump on it. There are other new experimental predictions. For example, corrections to the Einstein's formula in the decay law of fast moving unstable particles. But these corrections are ridiculously small, and I don't see a chance for them to be measured in the near future. I think every GRist understands an idealized gedanken. In practical applications better understanding is obtained when the specific charges relating photons to measurement are accounted for, but the level of detail usually bores everybody. Sorry, I missed your point here. Could you please rephrase your statement. Well a photon can't be *measured* to move from one *point* to another. We really need an emitter and detector at each end. So? GR is fully based on the Minkowski space-time picture. No it's not, as I explained the math AE used, used Minkowski as a crude approximation in the absence of gravitation, but the principles of GR stand independent of math assumptions. I always thought that space-time in GR is just the same 4D Minkowski continuum, just curved, i.e., with non-trivial metric tensor. The curvature is dependent on gravitating masses, or energy-momentum tensor of the matter. If there is not much matter around, then the space-time continuumm is flat, the metric tensor is (-1, 1, 1, 1) and we can use old good SR for all means and purposes. Hmmm, let me demo how GR predicts Quantum Theory. SR excluded absolute velocity. GR excluded absolute acceleration. When you're predicting the motion of particles and their measurement these Principles of Special and General Relativity must be included or denied, I'll include them. For example, GR impacts Lorentz force to produce the following problem...Lorentz force is defined by, f_u = q*F_uv U^v q=charge, F_uv is EM field tensor, U^v is four velocity. Since f_u is a tensor, if it is non-zero in one FoR (Frame of Reference) then it is non zero in all FoR's. However that means f_u is a force/acceleration that is "absolute" as no FoR can be found where the acceleration is zero. But that contradicts GR! GR requires, f_u = 0, ie. absolute acceleration vanishes in all FoR's. f_u are components of a force vector and we can re-write, f_u = f*U_u and it follows from f_u=0 and U_0 =/=0 that f=0. That provides a basis for the Quantum Theory. Consider, 0 = f_0 = q*f_01 U^1 == q*E.V = 0 where E is Electric field and V is Velocity. Note the constraint on the "motion" of charge q in the E-field, (I call that a quantum geodesic for short). It specifically prevents a charge from continuously moving in the direction of the E-field. That in turn predicts charge "q" cannot continuously vary in energy, IOW's an electron cannot spiral into a central nucleus, it is constrained to move in quantized fashion by GR requiring Lorentz force to vanish. (I have ref's if anybody wants). The point is GR unifies EM and QT, it's much more than gravity. [...] This is very interesting, and doesn't look like conventional approach. Please understand me that I do not reject SR. Universal linear Lorentz transformations, and even Minkowski space-time may be a good approximation for most systems. My corrections to SR predictions are miniscule, with the exception of instantaneous propagation of interactions, That's a BIG exception. which still awaits experimental test. SR captures 99.999% of relativistic effects. I am arguing about SR's pretense that these 99.999% is full, accurate, entire, and complete truth. My point is that Minkowski space-time is rigorously justified ONLY if SR accounts for 100% of the truth. The 0.001% of difference I've discovered, undermines the universality of the Minkowski space-time and therefore the entire idea. SR has been superseded by GR in 1914. But I believe you agree that far from massive bodies all inertial frames of reference are equivalent and related to each other by transformations forming the Poincare group? If you agree with that than I do not need any extra input to my theory. I just need this and postulates of quantum mechanics. I believe, you do not dispute postulates of quantum mechanics? If what you are saying is true and we can derive the principle of relativity and the Poincare group and quantum mechanics from GR, then my book demonstrates that there is fundamental contradiction, because the principle of relativity + the Poincare group + quantum mechanics require instantaneous interaction (as I have shown) and GR requires retarded interaction (as you claim). Something somewhere is wrong. I believe the problem is not on my side. your statement (2) rejects GR, Again, I do not reject GR. GR could be a fine computational approach, which, probably, can account for 99.999% of observable effects in gravity. I just don't know much about GR. What I know is that GR uses the same idea of universal "background" space-time as SR. I showed that this idea is not more than approximation (though a good one). I am against pretending that curved space-time is exact and final truth. Good, curved spacetime is an analogy, I've showed above GR is much more deeper than that. I choose this expression not to diminish GR, which I respect very much. I choose this expression because I am not that familiar with GR (I know a lot about it, but not enough to withstand your attack, I think). So, I don't want you to start asking me questions about GR and gravity, for which I don't have answers. I think we can perfectly confine our discussion to the world without gravity, where I feel myself safer. You don't want to "feel" safe, the laws of nature aren't warm and fuzzy, people die and risk health and fortunes to get a bit more insight. Do we need GR to predict Lamb's shifts or scattering cross-sections of charged particles? It would surprise me if you don't. With all due respect, a 4 year old does not need to know electrical and quantum theory to know flicking a switch on a wall makes light. It all depends how refined you want unified field theory. The definition of "refined" is rather subjective. If theory does not have many adjustable parameters and postulates, can predict many observable effect, and all effects predicted by the theory are, at least in principle, observable, this theory looks good to me. Note that the last requirement is often violated, e.g., in QED predicting virtual particles. Everything we know to date, I find supports field theories expressed with finite rate propagators, Let us take QED. Could you please show me a reference in which retarded propagation of electromagnetic intearaction is demonstrated in the formalism of QED. I am talking about direct solution of a simple two-particle problem: two charged particles A and B are at a distance R from each other; some external impact changes the trajectory of particle A; when particle B will feel this change? Ah that's 3 particles. I'm assuming the inbound particle is a photon, and particle A and B represent a dipole able to react with the photon, then A and B will react at the same time, they behave as one particle like an atom of hydrogen absorbing a photon. The electromagnetic gain in energy is the same for the electron and the proton and is simultaneous. Not necessarily, we can take A and B as two specks of dust with equal charges separated by 1 cm, so all quantum efects are out of the picture. Then we can concentrate photons in a narrow laser beam, much smaller than 1 cm, and shoot at particle A, so particle B is not directly affected by the photons. after time R/c or immediately. Immediately. [...] Please do not try to use in your argument things like (anti)commutativity of fields at space-like separations. These properties have no relationship to the problem I am talking about. Ok, not yet. In my view, QED cannot say anything about the speed of propagation of interaction, because 1) There is no well-defined Hamiltonian in QED. The Hamiltonian in QED is plagued by infinite counterterms. 2) Without well-defined Hamiltonian, there is no way to calculate time evolution of interacting system. 3) Without direct calculation of time evolution you cannot say whether interaction is retarded or instantaneous. Or (4) there is no problem. [...] Intrusion of a mere "charge couple" disturbs spacetime sufficiently to include that consideration when physical law is considered. I repeat my question: where is the need for GR when we calculate the spectrum of the hydrogen atom or Compton scattering? I'll help you with the answer: Nowhere. Steve Bell has posted some research in sci.physics, about that. I suggest you google him and/or email him about GR and electron orbitals. As I demo'd GR is fundamental to QT, just depends on depth. I disagree. But this is probably a topic for another thread. From: Ken S. Tucker ) Subject: Geodesic Definition Newsgroups: sci.physics.research Date: 2003-05-06 10:36:32 PST about photons atoms and relativity. Ken S. Tucker Could you please reproduce this post. I cannot see sci.physics.research at this early date. Just go to the group and use search. You're welcome. I must say I'm a bit worried about a man of your young age and high intelligence making such strict decisions at variance with alot of good (and some bad) work, by dismissing a century of genius. I disagree with you here. I think that I understand SR, QM, and QFT pretty well. The list of references in the book should convince you that I am staying current with the literature. I incorporated work of lot of geniuses in my book: Einstein, Dirac, Weinberg, to name a few. If you have any specific substantive comments on what I have done, I would welcome it. If you see any gaps in my postulates or my logic, I would like to know it. If you want to simply dismiss what I have done because it disagrees with accepted "wisdom", that's your choice. The fellows you mention above have internally consistent theory's logically interlaced, one cannot take a bit of relativity (Lorentz) and discard the unwanted (light limit), and declare FTL interaction as based on any of Einstein's refs. Some of them, esp. Dirac, expressed deep concerns about logical inconsistency of existing quantum field theory, in particular regarding ultraviolet divergences. You may find it surprising, but FTL interaction IS based on Einstein's work, because the principle of relativity and the Poincare group of inertial transformations are essential ingredients of my approach. Special relativity is perfectly correct when it considers non- interacting systems. Einstein's mistake was to extend (without proper justification) the same formulas to interacting systems. I just corrected this mistake. Regards Ken S. Tucker Eugene Stefanovich |
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Eugene Stefanovich wrote in message ... Ken S. Tucker wrote: I'm suggesting your FTL requirement/prediction (FTL=Faster Than Light) contradicts a great deal of theory As I wrote in the preceding posting, FTL interactions contradict j ust one "postulate" of the old theory, i.e., the universality of Lorentz transformations. I also listed there all postulates I used in my book, and mentioned that the "Lorentz universality" postulate contradicts other postulates and not needed to construct viable theory. Without this postulate, a fully consistent theory of particles and their interactions can be constructed which agrees with all experimental measurements performed so far and predicts a great deal of new effects (everything related to time-dependent dynamics is completely omitted in standard QED, and can be represented in my approach) and experiment. I looked very hard for credible experiment which directly proves the retarded character of interactions between charged particles. Couldn't find one. If you know such an experiment, please let me know as well. The measurement of the speed of propagation of the Coulomb and magnetic forces is not as simple as it appears. So, I believe, it has not been done yet. Of course, the speed of propagation of electromagnetic waves is c. Nobody disputes that. But in my approach, electromagnetic wave is just a flow of photons, and it is not directly related to the (Coulomb and magnetic) interaction between charged particles. You're attempting to *disintegrate* Maxwell's equations into "(Coulomb and magnetic)" as separate entities. However Einstein's 1905 SR paper explained why that shouldn't be done. I think you're taking a mechanistic and reductionist view of physics that pre-dated Maxwell, relativity and QT. My interpretation of your statement suggest you're questioning basic Maxwell's Equations. You would need some hard data or some experiment to prove that. You're theory is on very unsafe grounds without that. That's right. That's the weakest point of my theory. So, far there is no experiment in which the differences between my approach and traditional QFT can be seen. My best bet is the measurements of the speed of propagation of interaction between charged particles. I think it is doable, if experimentalists really jump on it. There are other new experimental predictions. For example, corrections to the Einstein's formula in the decay law of fast moving unstable particles. But these corrections are ridiculously small, and I don't see a chance for them to be measured in the near future. Experimentalists would jump at it if there was a shot in hell. [...] Hmmm, let me demo how GR predicts Quantum Theory. SR excluded absolute velocity. GR excluded absolute acceleration. When you're predicting the motion of particles and their measurement these Principles of Special and General Relativity must be included or denied, I'll include them. For example, GR impacts Lorentz force to produce the following problem...Lorentz force is defined by, f_u = q*F_uv U^v q=charge, F_uv is EM field tensor, U^v is four velocity. Since f_u is a tensor, if it is non-zero in one FoR (Frame of Reference) then it is non zero in all FoR's. However that means f_u is a force/acceleration that is "absolute" as no FoR can be found where the acceleration is zero. But that contradicts GR! GR requires, f_u = 0, ie. absolute acceleration vanishes in all FoR's. f_u are components of a force vector and we can re-write, f_u = f*U_u and it follows from f_u=0 and U_0 =/=0 that f=0. That provides a basis for the Quantum Theory. Consider, 0 = f_0 = q*f_01 U^1 == q*E.V = 0 where E is Electric field and V is Velocity. Note the constraint on the "motion" of charge q in the E-field, (I call that a quantum geodesic for short). It specifically prevents a charge from continuously moving in the direction of the E-field. That in turn predicts charge "q" cannot continuously vary in energy, IOW's an electron cannot spiral into a central nucleus, it is constrained to move in quantized fashion by GR requiring Lorentz force to vanish. (I have ref's if anybody wants). The point is GR unifies EM and QT, it's much more than gravity. [...] This is very interesting, and doesn't look like conventional approach. Glad you saw that, and you're right, GRist's are quite confused when Lorentz force is considered in GR. Let me explain a bit... Einstein was very instrumental in the developement of QT, indeed I would say he really had a very deep understanding of the relation of QT to relativity. For reference please see, Dover's "Principle of Relativity", the 1916 Foundation of GR, page 155. Check out Eq.(65) and Eq.(20b and c), please note the kappa_sigma used refers to a geodesic that vanishes. Following Eq.(65a) please read, "electric masses...kappa_sigma will vanish." Please note Eq.(65) is equivalent to Lorentz force (density) and that vanishes in the text that follows as I quoted. Einstein went into a level of depth and detail that seems to be confusing to GRist's where GR unifies QT and EM theory, but it's right there in 1916 print as I paraphrased in my GR/QT demo. I used that ref so you may more securely consider my demo. [...] SR has been superseded by GR in 1914. ((should have been 1916)) But I believe you agree that far from massive bodies all inertial frames of reference are equivalent and related to each other by transformations forming the Poincare group? If you agree with that than I do not need any extra input to my theory. I just need this and postulates of quantum mechanics. I believe, you do not dispute postulates of quantum mechanics? If what you are saying is true and we can derive the principle of relativity and the Poincare group and quantum mechanics from GR, then my book demonstrates that there is fundamental contradiction, because the principle of relativity + the Poincare group + quantum mechanics require instantaneous interaction (as I have shown) and GR requires retarded interaction (as you claim). Something somewhere is wrong. I believe the problem is not on my side. That's why we're talking. [...] The definition of "refined" is rather subjective. If theory does not have many adjustable parameters and postulates, can predict many observable effect, and all effects predicted by the theory are, at least in principle, observable, this theory looks good to me. Note that the last requirement is often violated, e.g., in QED predicting virtual particles. It depends on the footings, and the principles of their design. [...] Ah that's 3 particles. I'm assuming the inbound particle is a photon, and particle A and B represent a dipole able to react with the photon, then A and B will react at the same time, they behave as one particle like an atom of hydrogen absorbing a photon. The electromagnetic gain in energy is the same for the electron and the proton and is simultaneous. Not necessarily, we can take A and B as two specks of dust with equal charges separated by 1 cm, so all quantum efects are out of the picture. Then we can concentrate photons in a narrow laser beam, much smaller than 1 cm, and shoot at particle A, so particle B is not directly affected by the photons. Interesting, Am I correct to interpret what you said as... So A receives a momentum impulse from the high frquency laser and that varies - in turn - the |