(Jim Greenfield) wrote in message om...
"Ben Bean" wrote in message ...
"Maleki" wrote in message
...
Did Einstein have ADD? I thought a few of you Einstein
freaks should know something about this.

Y'mean "Attention Deficit Disorder"? How would one know? Relativity came
about through science questioning that which was previously unchallenged. Do
you really think there is a malady, ADD, and never question that??

There's a reason why the word "physician" and the word "physical" have the
same first six letters, m'man. Another term for physician is: HEALER. What
is healed by going around accusing your brethren of " having disorders",
pray tell? I thought it was the COPS' job to keep "order". I thought it was
the legislature's job to define "disorder" ie. transgression. And I thought
it was the COURTS' job to prudently probe into the actual veracity of any
such allegations against any citizen, and a JURY's job to sustain or acquit
on such charges.

Nothing can be gained and nothing bettered by analyzing people to death,
with heedless charlatanism and made-up maladies that cannot be objectively
assigned, much less treated. Psych is an old old ruse, the second-oldest
profession I'd bet. Belittling your fellow man, now that's real friendly!

If you want enlightenment, don't go around parroting shrinks, but instead
*question* authority; for A.D.D. is nothing more than a passing fad in the
ages-old name-calling spite game. Mental illness is forever: fixate on THAT
my friend! Psych is just an end-run around the Constitution (of nations that
are democracies) and a vile system of blacklisting (which is also illegal
here in the U.S. and elsewhere).

See also antipsychiatry.org on the Web (no affiliation w/poster).

-BB

A kid in our street is "diagnosed" as having ADD. He is impossible at
school and home, throwing temper tantrums, breaking things etc.
Passing strange though! He came to our house, wanting to play with my
daugter (6). I quietly took him out the back, pinched his ear HARD,
and told him he was quite welcome, so long as he NEVER tried that crap
at our house. Guess what? He was NEVER a problem with us (gave him a
little reminder occassionally), and came regularly to visit- he was a
different kid!
Moral: ADD in most cases is politically correct psycho-babble which
can be corrected by explaining to the "sufferer" that he/she has been
seen to be nothing but naughty, nasty, self-indulgent brat, and
discipline FIRMLY APPLIED.

Jim G
c'=c+v


Don't you just love all these fad syndromes?

I guess the drug companies love them too because it gives people a
legitimate sounding reason to pop lots of their pills (besides for
just getting high, that is).

Too bad kids are caught up in this drug company culture.

Double-A

Dear Double-A:

"Double-A" wrote in message
m...
(Jim Greenfield) wrote in message
om...
"Ben Bean" wrote in message
...
"Maleki" wrote in message
...
Did Einstein have ADD? I thought a few of you Einstein
freaks should know something about this.

Y'mean "Attention Deficit Disorder"? How would one know? Relativity
came
about through science questioning that which was previously
unchallenged. Do
you really think there is a malady, ADD, and never question that??

There's a reason why the word "physician" and the word "physical" have
the
same first six letters, m'man. Another term for physician is: HEALER.
What
is healed by going around accusing your brethren of " having
disorders",
pray tell? I thought it was the COPS' job to keep "order". I thought
it was
the legislature's job to define "disorder" ie. transgression. And I
thought
it was the COURTS' job to prudently probe into the actual veracity of
any
such allegations against any citizen, and a JURY's job to sustain or
acquit
on such charges.

Nothing can be gained and nothing bettered by analyzing people to
death,
with heedless charlatanism and made-up maladies that cannot be
objectively
assigned, much less treated. Psych is an old old ruse, the
second-oldest
profession I'd bet. Belittling your fellow man, now that's real
friendly!

If you want enlightenment, don't go around parroting shrinks, but
instead
*question* authority; for A.D.D. is nothing more than a passing fad in
the
ages-old name-calling spite game. Mental illness is forever: fixate on
THAT
my friend! Psych is just an end-run around the Constitution (of
nations that
are democracies) and a vile system of blacklisting (which is also
illegal
here in the U.S. and elsewhere).

See also antipsychiatry.org on the Web (no affiliation w/poster).

-BB

A kid in our street is "diagnosed" as having ADD. He is impossible at
school and home, throwing temper tantrums, breaking things etc.
Passing strange though! He came to our house, wanting to play with my
daugter (6). I quietly took him out the back, pinched his ear HARD,
and told him he was quite welcome, so long as he NEVER tried that crap
at our house. Guess what? He was NEVER a problem with us (gave him a
little reminder occassionally), and came regularly to visit- he was a
different kid!
Moral: ADD in most cases is politically correct psycho-babble which
can be corrected by explaining to the "sufferer" that he/she has been
seen to be nothing but naughty, nasty, self-indulgent brat, and
discipline FIRMLY APPLIED.

Jim G
c'=c+v


Don't you just love all these fad syndromes?

I guess the drug companies love them too because it gives people a
legitimate sounding reason to pop lots of their pills (besides for
just getting high, that is).

Too bad kids are caught up in this drug company culture.

Look at it from another view. For teachers, requiring the parents to
"discipline" their child (whether with the "rod" or drugs), is a godsend.
Because the "lawyers" will let a teacher neither hug nor punish...

David A. Smith

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:

Dear Double-A:

"Double-A" wrote in message
m...

(Jim Greenfield) wrote in message
.com...

"Ben Bean" wrote in message
...

"Maleki" wrote in message
...

Did Einstein have ADD? I thought a few of you Einstein
freaks should know something about this.

Y'mean "Attention Deficit Disorder"? How would one know? Relativity
came
about through science questioning that which was previously
unchallenged. Do
you really think there is a malady, ADD, and never question that??

There's a reason why the word "physician" and the word "physical" have
the
same first six letters, m'man. Another term for physician is: HEALER.
What
is healed by going around accusing your brethren of " having
disorders",
pray tell? I thought it was the COPS' job to keep "order". I thought
it was
the legislature's job to define "disorder" ie. transgression. And I
thought
it was the COURTS' job to prudently probe into the actual veracity of
any
such allegations against any citizen, and a JURY's job to sustain or
acquit
on such charges.

Nothing can be gained and nothing bettered by analyzing people to
death,
with heedless charlatanism and made-up maladies that cannot be
objectively
assigned, much less treated. Psych is an old old ruse, the
second-oldest
profession I'd bet. Belittling your fellow man, now that's real
friendly!

If you want enlightenment, don't go around parroting shrinks, but
instead
*question* authority; for A.D.D. is nothing more than a passing fad in
the
ages-old name-calling spite game. Mental illness is forever: fixate on
THAT
my friend! Psych is just an end-run around the Constitution (of
nations that
are democracies) and a vile system of blacklisting (which is also
illegal
here in the U.S. and elsewhere).

See also antipsychiatry.org on the Web (no affiliation w/poster).

-BB

A kid in our street is "diagnosed" as having ADD. He is impossible at
school and home, throwing temper tantrums, breaking things etc.
Passing strange though! He came to our house, wanting to play with my
daugter (6). I quietly took him out the back, pinched his ear HARD,
and told him he was quite welcome, so long as he NEVER tried that crap
at our house. Guess what? He was NEVER a problem with us (gave him a
little reminder occassionally), and came regularly to visit- he was a
different kid!
Moral: ADD in most cases is politically correct psycho-babble which
can be corrected by explaining to the "sufferer" that he/she has been
seen to be nothing but naughty, nasty, self-indulgent brat, and
discipline FIRMLY APPLIED.

Jim G
c'=c+v


Don't you just love all these fad syndromes?

I guess the drug companies love them too because it gives people a
legitimate sounding reason to pop lots of their pills (besides for
just getting high, that is).

Too bad kids are caught up in this drug company culture.


Look at it from another view. For teachers, requiring the parents to
"discipline" their child (whether with the "rod" or drugs), is a godsend.
Because the "lawyers" will let a teacher neither hug nor punish...

David A. Smith


Look at it from the POV of someone who worked as a professional
therapist in a team of medical and social service professionals
doing extensive, inpatient diagnosis of adolescents with problems.

Sometimes we did find that the teens had been wrongly diagnosed
as being ADD or ADHD. More often, we discovered kids that had
_not_ been so diagnosed, and in fact did have ADD or ADHD. Most
of the time, medication made an immediate and dramatic change in
their behavior, and in their ability to focus on the boring
stuff most of us can focus on easily.

Medication alone is never the whole answer; and in many cases,
it isn't the answer at all. But to think that 'ADD in most
cases is politically correct psycho-babble which can be
corrected by explaining to the 'sufferer that he/she has been
see to be nothing but naughty, nasty, self-indulgent brat....'
is idiotic. It is precisely the same as saying about diabetics:
'If they would only be more disciplined and nice, they
wouldn't need that insulin.'

I agree that the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD is too frequently an
abdication of responsibility by adults in charge of children.
But to go to the opposite extreme is far more harmful, and is
far more likely to produce sociopaths than it is to produce
upstanding citizens.

But hey, if you want to push for the re-introduction of child
abuse in schools, go for it. You'll find a lot of supporters;
and you will make yourselves known so that honest folks in your
community can avoid you.

--
Tom McDonald

Dear Tom McDonald:

"Tom McDonald" wrote in message
...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:

Dear Double-A:

"Double-A" wrote in message
m...

(Jim Greenfield) wrote in message
e.com...

"Ben Bean" wrote in message
...

"Maleki" wrote in message
...

Did Einstein have ADD? I thought a few of you Einstein
freaks should know something about this.

Y'mean "Attention Deficit Disorder"? How would one know? Relativity
came
about through science questioning that which was previously
unchallenged. Do
you really think there is a malady, ADD, and never question that??

There's a reason why the word "physician" and the word "physical" have
the
same first six letters, m'man. Another term for physician is: HEALER.
What
is healed by going around accusing your brethren of " having
disorders",
pray tell? I thought it was the COPS' job to keep "order". I thought
it was
the legislature's job to define "disorder" ie. transgression. And I
thought
it was the COURTS' job to prudently probe into the actual veracity of
any
such allegations against any citizen, and a JURY's job to sustain or
acquit
on such charges.

Nothing can be gained and nothing bettered by analyzing people to
death,
with heedless charlatanism and made-up maladies that cannot be
objectively
assigned, much less treated. Psych is an old old ruse, the
second-oldest
profession I'd bet. Belittling your fellow man, now that's real
friendly!

If you want enlightenment, don't go around parroting shrinks, but
instead
*question* authority; for A.D.D. is nothing more than a passing fad in
the
ages-old name-calling spite game. Mental illness is forever: fixate on
THAT
my friend! Psych is just an end-run around the Constitution (of
nations that
are democracies) and a vile system of blacklisting (which is also
illegal
here in the U.S. and elsewhere).

See also antipsychiatry.org on the Web (no affiliation w/poster).

-BB

A kid in our street is "diagnosed" as having ADD. He is impossible at
school and home, throwing temper tantrums, breaking things etc.
Passing strange though! He came to our house, wanting to play with my
daugter (6). I quietly took him out the back, pinched his ear HARD,
and told him he was quite welcome, so long as he NEVER tried that crap
at our house. Guess what? He was NEVER a problem with us (gave him a
little reminder occassionally), and came regularly to visit- he was a
different kid!
Moral: ADD in most cases is politically correct psycho-babble which
can be corrected by explaining to the "sufferer" that he/she has been
seen to be nothing but naughty, nasty, self-indulgent brat, and
discipline FIRMLY APPLIED.

Jim G
c'=c+v


Don't you just love all these fad syndromes?

I guess the drug companies love them too because it gives people a
legitimate sounding reason to pop lots of their pills (besides for
just getting high, that is).

Too bad kids are caught up in this drug company culture.


Look at it from another view. For teachers, requiring the parents to
"discipline" their child (whether with the "rod" or drugs), is a
godsend. Because the "lawyers" will let a teacher neither hug nor
punish...

David A. Smith
Look at it from the POV of someone who worked as a professional therapist
in a team of medical and social service professionals doing extensive,
inpatient diagnosis of adolescents with problems.

Sometimes we did find that the teens had been wrongly diagnosed as being
ADD or ADHD. More often, we discovered kids that had _not_ been so
diagnosed, and in fact did have ADD or ADHD. Most of the time,
medication made an immediate and dramatic change in their behavior, and
in their ability to focus on the boring stuff most of us can focus on
easily.

Medication alone is never the whole answer; and in many cases, it isn't
the answer at all. But to think that 'ADD in most cases is politically
correct psycho-babble which can be corrected by explaining to the
'sufferer that he/she has been see to be nothing but naughty, nasty,
self-indulgent brat....' is idiotic. It is precisely the same as saying
about diabetics: 'If they would only be more disciplined and nice, they
wouldn't need that insulin.'

Actually, digitalis - epilepsy would be a better simile than insulin -
diabetes.

I agree that the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD is too frequently an abdication of
responsibility by adults in charge of children. But to go to the opposite
extreme is far more harmful, and is far more likely to produce sociopaths
than it is to produce upstanding citizens.

But hey, if you want to push for the re-introduction of child abuse in
schools, go for it. You'll find a lot of supporters; and you will make
yourselves known so that honest folks in your community can avoid you.

You were doing great up until this last paragraph. Nature only serves
lessons one way. Enculturation in many tribes/bands can involve
pain/disfigurement/death.

But more to the point "you reap what you sow". Teaching by corporal
punishment only makes corporal punishment part of everyday life. We can,
and often, do better using the minds that we were given. No one is pushing
for "child abuse in the schools".

Consider though, that your child is being taught by people that have larger
and larger classes, and have to try and communicate across the "ADD" or
"ADHD" noise in the classroom. The entire classroom suffers if *someone*
doesn't control this bandwidth. If you don't want the teacher dispensing
drugs (essentially), then it is up to the parents to provide an
"instructable" child.

David A. Smith

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" N: dlzc1 D:cox wrote in message news:i6j%c.102868$4o.61466@fed1read01...
Dear Tom McDonald:

"Tom McDonald" wrote in message
...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:

Dear Double-A:

"Double-A" wrote in message
m...

(Jim Greenfield) wrote in message
e.com...

"Ben Bean" wrote in message
...

"Maleki" wrote in message
...

Did Einstein have ADD? I thought a few of you Einstein
freaks should know something about this.

Y'mean "Attention Deficit Disorder"? How would one know? Relativity
came
about through science questioning that which was previously
unchallenged. Do
you really think there is a malady, ADD, and never question that??

There's a reason why the word "physician" and the word "physical" have
the
same first six letters, m'man. Another term for physician is: HEALER.
What
is healed by going around accusing your brethren of " having
disorders",
pray tell? I thought it was the COPS' job to keep "order". I thought
it was
the legislature's job to define "disorder" ie. transgression. And I
thought
it was the COURTS' job to prudently probe into the actual veracity of
any
such allegations against any citizen, and a JURY's job to sustain or
acquit
on such charges.

Nothing can be gained and nothing bettered by analyzing people to
death,
with heedless charlatanism and made-up maladies that cannot be
objectively
assigned, much less treated. Psych is an old old ruse, the
second-oldest
profession I'd bet. Belittling your fellow man, now that's real
friendly!

If you want enlightenment, don't go around parroting shrinks, but
instead
*question* authority; for A.D.D. is nothing more than a passing fad in
the
ages-old name-calling spite game. Mental illness is forever: fixate on
THAT
my friend! Psych is just an end-run around the Constitution (of
nations that
are democracies) and a vile system of blacklisting (which is also
illegal
here in the U.S. and elsewhere).

See also antipsychiatry.org on the Web (no affiliation w/poster).

-BB

A kid in our street is "diagnosed" as having ADD. He is impossible at
school and home, throwing temper tantrums, breaking things etc.
Passing strange though! He came to our house, wanting to play with my
daugter (6). I quietly took him out the back, pinched his ear HARD,
and told him he was quite welcome, so long as he NEVER tried that crap
at our house. Guess what? He was NEVER a problem with us (gave him a
little reminder occassionally), and came regularly to visit- he was a
different kid!
Moral: ADD in most cases is politically correct psycho-babble which
can be corrected by explaining to the "sufferer" that he/she has been
seen to be nothing but naughty, nasty, self-indulgent brat, and
discipline FIRMLY APPLIED.

Jim G
c'=c+v


Don't you just love all these fad syndromes?

I guess the drug companies love them too because it gives people a
legitimate sounding reason to pop lots of their pills (besides for
just getting high, that is).

Too bad kids are caught up in this drug company culture.


Look at it from another view. For teachers, requiring the parents to
"discipline" their child (whether with the "rod" or drugs), is a
godsend. Because the "lawyers" will let a teacher neither hug nor
punish...

David A. Smith
Look at it from the POV of someone who worked as a professional therapist
in a team of medical and social service professionals doing extensive,
inpatient diagnosis of adolescents with problems.

Sometimes we did find that the teens had been wrongly diagnosed as being
ADD or ADHD. More often, we discovered kids that had _not_ been so
diagnosed, and in fact did have ADD or ADHD. Most of the time,
medication made an immediate and dramatic change in their behavior, and
in their ability to focus on the boring stuff most of us can focus on
easily.

Medication alone is never the whole answer; and in many cases, it isn't
the answer at all. But to think that 'ADD in most cases is politically
correct psycho-babble which can be corrected by explaining to the
'sufferer that he/she has been see to be nothing but naughty, nasty,
self-indulgent brat....' is idiotic. It is precisely the same as saying
about diabetics: 'If they would only be more disciplined and nice, they
wouldn't need that insulin.'

Actually, digitalis - epilepsy would be a better simile than insulin -
diabetes.

I agree that the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD is too frequently an abdication of
responsibility by adults in charge of children. But to go to the opposite
extreme is far more harmful, and is far more likely to produce sociopaths
than it is to produce upstanding citizens.

But hey, if you want to push for the re-introduction of child abuse in
schools, go for it. You'll find a lot of supporters; and you will make
yourselves known so that honest folks in your community can avoid you.

You were doing great up until this last paragraph. Nature only serves
lessons one way. Enculturation in many tribes/bands can involve
pain/disfigurement/death.

But more to the point "you reap what you sow". Teaching by corporal
punishment only makes corporal punishment part of everyday life. We can,
and often, do better using the minds that we were given. No one is pushing
for "child abuse in the schools".

Consider though, that your child is being taught by people that have larger
and larger classes, and have to try and communicate across the "ADD" or
"ADHD" noise in the classroom. The entire classroom suffers if *someone*
doesn't control this bandwidth. If you don't want the teacher dispensing
drugs (essentially), then it is up to the parents to provide an
"instructable" child.

David A. Smith

If ADD is a mental deficiency akin to epilepsy, what is Tom MacDonald
suffering from, that he would prefer 29 kids to be abused in class by
not being able to progress and enjoy their schooling, so that ONE can
self-indulgently run amok, because he has no fear of reprisal! Has he
ever heard of the concept "for the betterment of the MAJORITY"? Who is
getting abused?- certainly not the cretin who's (often single) parent
is picking up a fatter social security cheque because "poor Tommy has
ADD".
And those parents aren't the only ones benefitting financially. How
many psychiatrists and other "health professionals" earn very large
salaries, through increasing their number of ADD "clients"?
There were about 800 at my highschool in 1960s- not ONE with
ADD!!!!!!!!!
Parental cop-outing wasn't acceptable, and neither was blatant
flaunting of discipline.
Of course some kids will throw a tantrum if they know it will get the
result they (think) want- crime does pay when it is so easy. But let's
see how many repeatedly try it, when they KNOW that significant
discipline is bound to follow.
Oh, and the violent school yard bully? Almost without exception, a
child who has never been subjected to reliable, firm discipline.

Jim G
c'=c+v

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Tom McDonald:

snip

Consider though, that your child is being taught by people that have larger
and larger classes, and have to try and communicate across the "ADD" or
"ADHD" noise in the classroom. The entire classroom suffers if *someone*
doesn't control this bandwidth. If you don't want the teacher dispensing
drugs (essentially), then it is up to the parents to provide an
"instructable" child.

David A. Smith

David,

There is a third option. That is doing an IEP (Individual
Educational Plan) for the child that pulls together parents,
school, CESA, social services, and any other necessary services
to meet the educational needs of the student while respecting
the other students and teachers. This is not only a very good
idea, it is the law, at least in Wisconsin. (I think it's
generally true throughout the 50 states in the US.)

I've been involved in several IEPs as a social worker and as a
family therapist. They do take significant work, and do not
always succeed. But they work well enough and often enough to
be well worth the investment in the plan development, and in the
services offered to the student, family and school.

I am of the opinion that ADD/ADHD was not particularly a
'disorder' until the rise of industrial society, and especially
with the coming of large schools with one age group per class.
Blame Henry Ford. He wanted to raise good assembly line
workers, and pushed school consolidation that ended the one room
school's built in peer mentoring and control.

I apologize to you for the 'child abuse' business. I was
confusing your reply with that of Jim Greenfield. Jim gave the
example of pinching a neighbor kid's ear as a means of dealing
with the kid's ADD.

--
Tom McDonald

Dear Tom McDonald:

"Tom McDonald" wrote in message
...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear Tom McDonald:

snip

Consider though, that your child is being taught by people that have
larger and larger classes, and have to try and communicate across the
"ADD" or "ADHD" noise in the classroom. The entire classroom suffers if
*someone* doesn't control this bandwidth. If you don't want the teacher
dispensing drugs (essentially), then it is up to the parents to provide
an "instructable" child.

David,

There is a third option. That is doing an IEP (Individual Educational
Plan) for the child that pulls together parents, school, CESA, social
services, and any other necessary services to meet the educational needs
of the student while respecting the other students and teachers. This is
not only a very good idea, it is the law, at least in Wisconsin. (I
think it's generally true throughout the 50 states in the US.)

Same in Arridzona, but it is not the "law". A child is set up with an IEP
if he has "issues".

I've been involved in several IEPs as a social worker and as a family
therapist. They do take significant work, and do not always succeed.
But they work well enough and often enough to be well worth the
investment in the plan development, and in the services offered to the
student, family and school.

It is a tool, like a hammer. Not all problems behave like nails. But
you've got to have a place to start.

I am of the opinion that ADD/ADHD was not particularly a 'disorder' until
the rise of industrial society, and especially with the coming of large
schools with one age group per class. Blame Henry Ford. He wanted to
raise good assembly line workers, and pushed school consolidation that
ended the one room school's built in peer mentoring and control.

There are a lot of environmental allergies as well. The consolidations are
the result of a "successful" and unculled population (not that I really
want us to be periodically preened by Morlocks either). Not exactly Henry
Ford's fault for this, or even for burning all my college money for two
years keeping one of his products running. One of the good reasons for an
active frontier...

I apologize to you for the 'child abuse' business. I was confusing your
reply with that of Jim Greenfield. Jim gave the example of pinching a
neighbor kid's ear as a means of dealing with the kid's ADD.

No issues. I felt that perhaps I had not been clear. If Greenfield had
done this with my dog, he would have gone to jail, or at least been
bleeding. The "fact" that his neighbor lets him get away with it with his
child... says something about both of them. Yes, one can dampen one's
expression from fear, but it is not very conducive to learning... except
learning how to lie, and how to get back at them.

Over and out.

David A. Smith

Jim Greenfield wrote:

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" N: dlzc1 D:cox wrote in message news:i6j%c.102868$4o.61466@fed1read01...

Dear Tom McDonald:

"Tom McDonald" wrote in message
...

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:


Dear Double-A:

"Double-A" wrote in message
e.com...


(Jim Greenfield) wrote in message
gle.com...


"Ben Bean" wrote in message
...


"Maleki" wrote in message
news:xtdbd0j2wop5.1277bg35hwga6$.dlg@40tude .net...


Did Einstein have ADD? I thought a few of you Einstein
freaks should know something about this.

Y'mean "Attention Deficit Disorder"? How would one know? Relativity
came
about through science questioning that which was previously
unchallenged. Do
you really think there is a malady, ADD, and never question that??

There's a reason why the word "physician" and the word "physical" have
the
same first six letters, m'man. Another term for physician is: HEALER.
What
is healed by going around accusing your brethren of " having
disorders",
pray tell? I thought it was the COPS' job to keep "order". I thought
it was
the legislature's job to define "disorder" ie. transgression. And I
thought
it was the COURTS' job to prudently probe into the actual veracity of
any
such allegations against any citizen, and a JURY's job to sustain or
acquit
on such charges.

Nothing can be gained and nothing bettered by analyzing people to
death,
with heedless charlatanism and made-up maladies that cannot be
objectively
assigned, much less treated. Psych is an old old ruse, the
second-oldest
profession I'd bet. Belittling your fellow man, now that's real
friendly!

If you want enlightenment, don't go around parroting shrinks, but
instead
*question* authority; for A.D.D. is nothing more than a passing fad in
the
ages-old name-calling spite game. Mental illness is forever: fixate on
THAT
my friend! Psych is just an end-run around the Constitution (of
nations that
are democracies) and a vile system of blacklisting (which is also
illegal
here in the U.S. and elsewhere).

See also antipsychiatry.org on the Web (no affiliation w/poster).

-BB

A kid in our street is "diagnosed" as having ADD. He is impossible at
school and home, throwing temper tantrums, breaking things etc.
Passing strange though! He came to our house, wanting to play with my
daugter (6). I quietly took him out the back, pinched his ear HARD,
and told him he was quite welcome, so long as he NEVER tried that crap
at our house. Guess what? He was NEVER a problem with us (gave him a
little reminder occassionally), and came regularly to visit- he was a
different kid!
Moral: ADD in most cases is politically correct psycho-babble which
can be corrected by explaining to the "sufferer" that he/she has been
seen to be nothing but naughty, nasty, self-indulgent brat, and
discipline FIRMLY APPLIED.

Jim G
c'=c+v


Don't you just love all these fad syndromes?

I guess the drug companies love them too because it gives people a
legitimate sounding reason to pop lots of their pills (besides for
just getting high, that is).

Too bad kids are caught up in this drug company culture.


Look at it from another view. For teachers, requiring the parents to
"discipline" their child (whether with the "rod" or drugs), is a
godsend. Because the "lawyers" will let a teacher neither hug nor
punish...

David A. Smith

Look at it from the POV of someone who worked as a professional therapist
in a team of medical and social service professionals doing extensive,
inpatient diagnosis of adolescents with problems.

Sometimes we did find that the teens had been wrongly diagnosed as being
ADD or ADHD. More often, we discovered kids that had _not_ been so
diagnosed, and in fact did have ADD or ADHD. Most of the time,
medication made an immediate and dramatic change in their behavior, and
in their ability to focus on the boring stuff most of us can focus on
easily.

Medication alone is never the whole answer; and in many cases, it isn't
the answer at all. But to think that 'ADD in most cases is politically
correct psycho-babble which can be corrected by explaining to the
'sufferer that he/she has been see to be nothing but naughty, nasty,
self-indulgent brat....' is idiotic. It is precisely the same as saying
about diabetics: 'If they would only be more disciplined and nice, they
wouldn't need that insulin.'

Actually, digitalis - epilepsy would be a better simile than insulin -
diabetes.


I agree that the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD is too frequently an abdication of
responsibility by adults in charge of children. But to go to the opposite
extreme is far more harmful, and is far more likely to produce sociopaths
than it is to produce upstanding citizens.

But hey, if you want to push for the re-introduction of child abuse in
schools, go for it. You'll find a lot of supporters; and you will make
yourselves known so that honest folks in your community can avoid you.

You were doing great up until this last paragraph. Nature only serves
lessons one way. Enculturation in many tribes/bands can involve
pain/disfigurement/death.

But more to the point "you reap what you sow". Teaching by corporal
punishment only makes corporal punishment part of everyday life. We can,
and often, do better using the minds that we were given. No one is pushing
for "child abuse in the schools".

Consider though, that your child is being taught by people that have larger
and larger classes, and have to try and communicate across the "ADD" or
"ADHD" noise in the classroom. The entire classroom suffers if *someone*
doesn't control this bandwidth. If you don't want the teacher dispensing
drugs (essentially), then it is up to the parents to provide an
"instructable" child.

David A. Smith


If ADD is a mental deficiency akin to epilepsy, what is Tom MacDonald
suffering from, that he would prefer 29 kids to be abused in class by
not being able to progress and enjoy their schooling, so that ONE can
self-indulgently run amok, because he has no fear of reprisal! Has he
ever heard of the concept "for the betterment of the MAJORITY"? Who is
getting abused?- certainly not the cretin who's (often single) parent
is picking up a fatter social security cheque because "poor Tommy has
ADD".
And those parents aren't the only ones benefitting financially. How
many psychiatrists and other "health professionals" earn very large
salaries, through increasing their number of ADD "clients"?
There were about 800 at my highschool in 1960s- not ONE with
ADD!!!!!!!!!
Parental cop-outing wasn't acceptable, and neither was blatant
flaunting of discipline.
Of course some kids will throw a tantrum if they know it will get the
result they (think) want- crime does pay when it is so easy. But let's
see how many repeatedly try it, when they KNOW that significant
discipline is bound to follow.
Oh, and the violent school yard bully? Almost without exception, a
child who has never been subjected to reliable, firm discipline.

Jim G
c'=c+v

Jim,

I'm glad I apologized to the right person. You clearly haven't
the foggiest idea of what ADD/ADHD are, or how they are
appropriately treated. ADD isn't a mental deficiency the sense
I think you mean it.

In pre-industrial cultures, ADD/ADHD would have been advantages
in certain circumstances. For instance, in the hunt, when
intense concentration is required, and the situation is
inherently exciting and interesting, the person with ADD would
have the advantage over the non-ADD hunter. The hunter with ADD
would be able to focus intensely on the hunt, on the stalking
and the preparation for the kill. The non-ADD hunter would be
less able to bring that intense focus to bear. In fact, a
hunting team that included ADD hunters with very narrow and
intense focus, and non-ADD hunters with wider situational
awareness, would be an ideal team.

It may be that you read the paragraph I just wrote and think
I'm bonkers. "Folks with 'ADD' are all over the place; the
problem is that they are rowdy and disruptive, not that they are
good little students." If that is your view, then you have
proven that you don't know what ADD/ADHD is, and what problems
and benefits having it can bring.

As for your earlier suggestion that ADD can be dealt with by
the application of severe pressure to the ear of the uppity kid,
I can only hope you try it in the presence of a mandated
reporter of child abuse. Whatever your political views about
the soft treatment of disruptive kids and the
parental/educational/social services/psychiatric conspiracy to
drag down America, I think you might be intrigued by the process
of arrest and trial for child abuse.

The school yard bully is almost without exception a kid who was
subjected to reliable, firm discipline (in the parents' view),
and who visited the same on weaker kids. Just like they learned
at home.

And just BTW, my last name is 'McDonald'.

--
Tom McDonald

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:

Dear Tom McDonald:

"Tom McDonald" wrote in message
...

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:

Dear Tom McDonald:

snip

Consider though, that your child is being taught by people that have
larger and larger classes, and have to try and communicate across the
"ADD" or "ADHD" noise in the classroom. The entire classroom suffers if
*someone* doesn't control this bandwidth. If you don't want the teacher
dispensing drugs (essentially), then it is up to the parents to provide
an "instructable" child.

David,

There is a third option. That is doing an IEP (Individual Educational
Plan) for the child that pulls together parents, school, CESA, social
services, and any other necessary services to meet the educational needs
of the student while respecting the other students and teachers. This is
not only a very good idea, it is the law, at least in Wisconsin. (I
think it's generally true throughout the 50 states in the US.)


Same in Arridzona, but it is not the "law". A child is set up with an IEP
if he has "issues".


David,

In Wisconsin and Minnesota, at least, school districts are
required to provide necessary services for 'issues' that
interfere with a child's ability to learn. While this does not
mean that the school is required to pay for all of the necessary
services (e.g. family counseling, medical treatment, etc.), it
does mean that the school is the focal point for the development
of the IEP process, and does have to provide their part of the
needed services. Schools tend to dislike this, and are often
loathe to tell parents about it, but there it is. I thought
that it was a federal thing, but I could be wrong.


I've been involved in several IEPs as a social worker and as a family
therapist. They do take significant work, and do not always succeed.
But they work well enough and often enough to be well worth the
investment in the plan development, and in the services offered to the
student, family and school.


It is a tool, like a hammer. Not all problems behave like nails. But
you've got to have a place to start.

Correctly applied, an IEP is the gateway to a whole shop full
of tools. However I have seen joinery problems addressed with a
jackhammer. :-)

snip

I apologize to you for the 'child abuse' business. I was confusing your
reply with that of Jim Greenfield. Jim gave the example of pinching a
neighbor kid's ear as a means of dealing with the kid's ADD.


No issues. I felt that perhaps I had not been clear. If Greenfield had
done this with my dog, he would have gone to jail, or at least been
bleeding. The "fact" that his neighbor lets him get away with it with his
child... says something about both of them. Yes, one can dampen one's
expression from fear, but it is not very conducive to learning... except
learning how to lie, and how to get back at them.

Precisely. It may have let Jim feel in charge for a while, but
it didn't do what he thought it did.

--
Tom McDonald

Jim Greenfield:

If ADD is a mental deficiency akin to epilepsy, what is Tom MacDonald
suffering from, that he would prefer 29 kids to be abused in class by
not being able to progress and enjoy their schooling, so that ONE can
self-indulgently run amok, because he has no fear of reprisal! Has he
ever heard of the concept "for the betterment of the MAJORITY"? Who is
getting abused?- certainly not the cretin who's (often single) parent
is picking up a fatter social security cheque because "poor Tommy has
ADD".

Of course. Being a cloned sheep yourself, you naturally seek to
reward sheeplike behaviour. You can't conceptualize what it's like
to be forced to operate below your mental capacity and conform to
clone-like behaviour because you find keeping up with the sheep
an interseting challenge, day in and day out.

[...]
Oh, and the violent school yard bully? Almost without exception, a
child who has never been subjected to reliable, firm discipline.

You fail to differentiate between people who are assholes and
intentionally put themselves in a position to be a pain in the
ass, such as yourself, and people who are a pain in the ass because
they don't want to be where they are forced to be. You could choose
not to post on this newsgroup, for example, and find others with
a similar low level of mental functionality to associate with. Someone
with add doesn't get to leave a classroom full of people like you.