IPADE

The speed of sound is about 1100 ft/s (33000 cm/s). Imagine a
modulated source of sound and a microphone at opposite ends of an 11ft
rig. Move the rig in still air at 110 ft/s parallel to its length.
In the direction of travel, the sound will take just over 10% longer
to reach the microphone. In the opposite direction it will take about
10% less.
If the rig were shortened by the Lorentz contraction, about 0.5%,
the two way travel time would remain constant.
If the rig were rotated by 180 degrees, the one way path of sound
would reach the microphone in 20% less time, a 0.002s change.
In the same way, a laser or microwave beam 93 miles long, parallel
to the equator, would be able to pick up an aether drift, if greater
than 16000 mph, over the 11h 58m half rotation of the earth, given an
atomic clock accuracy of two nano seconds per hour.
While carrying out such an experiment would seem a waste of time
and money given other owls experiments of far greater accuracy, the
simplicity of the concept would rule out the classical version of a
stationary euclidean aether...even for idiots.

Stephen Kearney

On 26 May 2004 20:12:22 -0700, (Old Physics) wrote:

IPADE

The speed of sound is about 1100 ft/s (33000 cm/s). Imagine a
modulated source of sound and a microphone at opposite ends of an 11ft
rig. Move the rig in still air at 110 ft/s parallel to its length.
In the direction of travel, the sound will take just over 10% longer
to reach the microphone. In the opposite direction it will take about
10% less.
If the rig were shortened by the Lorentz contraction, about 0.5%,
the two way travel time would remain constant.
If the rig were rotated by 180 degrees, the one way path of sound
would reach the microphone in 20% less time, a 0.002s change.
In the same way, a laser or microwave beam 93 miles long, parallel
to the equator, would be able to pick up an aether drift, if greater
than 16000 mph, over the 11h 58m half rotation of the earth, given an
atomic clock accuracy of two nano seconds per hour.
While carrying out such an experiment would seem a waste of time
and money given other owls experiments of far greater accuracy, the
simplicity of the concept would rule out the classical version of a
stationary euclidean aether...even for idiots.

Stephen Kearney

I suggested this years ago. But it probably wouldn't prove anything. There
would probably be a null result which would be open to interpretation and
speculation. Aether drag.. and all that stuff.

SRian style logic: Some cats have green eyes.....therefore..therefore..therefore trees purr when you stroke them.

Henri Wilson.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
See how three orbiting bodies interact:
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/threebody.exe

See proof that light speed is source dependent.
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/variablestars.exe

On 5/26/2004 10:12 PM, Old Physics wrote:
IPADE

[... aether drift experiment]

Such experiments have indeed been performed, and they are all consistent with a
null result within their resolutions. See the FAQ for references, specifically
the measurement by Cialdea, Krisher et al, and others in those sections.

Any ether theory that is to survive EXISTING experiments must predict that the
round-trip speed of light is isotropically c [#]. This puts a strong constraint
on the structure of such theories, and one conclusion for all such theories is
that "moving clock" experiments as you describe must also yield null results.

[#] unless it somehow "lives in the error bars" of existing
experiments -- that implies it violates my condition
above by no less than 6-th order in v/c, which seems
incredibly unlikely.


Tom Roberts

"Old Physics" a écrit dans le message de
m...
IPADE

The speed of sound is about 1100 ft/s (33000 cm/s). Imagine a
modulated source of sound and a microphone at opposite ends of an 11ft
rig. Move the rig in still air at 110 ft/s parallel to its length.
In the direction of travel, the sound will take just over 10% longer
to reach the microphone. In the opposite direction it will take about
10% less.
If the rig were shortened by the Lorentz contraction, about 0.5%,
the two way travel time would remain constant.
If the rig were rotated by 180 degrees, the one way path of sound
would reach the microphone in 20% less time, a 0.002s change.

Provided you use a strongly supersonic signal to perform a synchronization
of your distant clocks. Of course, no difference between the forward travel
time and the backward travel time of your phonons would be noticed if you
perform a relativistic synchronisation process using sound signals.

Bernard Chaverondier
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/lebigbang
Compatibility of Alain Aspect experiment interpretation as an action at a
distance with a formulation of Special Relativity in the framework of
Aristotle space-time (and an interpretation of relativist invariance as an
intrinsic property of phenomena that actually satisfy this invariance).

Thomas J Roberts wrote in message
...
On 5/26/2004 10:12 PM, Old Physics wrote:
IPADE

[... aether drift experiment]

Such experiments have indeed been performed, and they are all consistent
with a
null result within their resolutions. See the FAQ for references,
specifically
the measurement by Cialdea, Krisher et al, and others in those sections.

Tom's big lie again. Cialdea is not this type of experiment. Cialdae is
simply an interference experiment, not a timing test.

The only attempt at a timing test in the FAQ is Krisher. And Krisher found
the effect. They simply ascribed it to temperature variations ... even
though it wasn't correlated to day/night. And they had to throw out 99% of
their data (and an entire series of runs) in order to suppress what they
called a 'false positive' reading.

Any ether theory that is to survive EXISTING experiments must predict that
the round-trip speed of light is isotropically c [#].

Since there *are* no timing tests of this nature, this is a religious
requirement.

This puts a strong constraint
on the structure of such theories, and one conclusion for all such
theories is that "moving clock" experiments as you describe must also
yield null results.

GIGO.

[#] unless it somehow "lives in the error bars" of existing
experiments -- that implies it violates my condition
above by no less than 6-th order in v/c, which seems
incredibly unlikely.

GIGO

--
greywolf42
ubi dubium ibi libertas
{remove planet for return e-mail}

"greywolf42" wrote in message ...

Any ether theory that is to survive EXISTING experiments must predict that
the round-trip speed of light is isotropically c [#].

Since there *are* no timing tests of this nature, this is a religious
requirement.

This is not only a religious requirement. This is a false requirement.
Relativity says that the light velocity with regard to an evenly
translating frame is measured to be isotropic when Lorentz invariant
phenomena and measurement apparatuses are involved. On the contrary
Relativity (whith or without any quantum waves propagation medium, it
doesn't matter for the purpose of the present post) is perfectly up to
account for non reciprocal effects occuring in evenly rotating frames,
that's to say

* the non reciprocal Lorentz time dilation (Langevin paradox)
* the non reciprocal Lorentz contraction in circumferential
direction
* the relativist light velocity anisotropy with regatd to an evenly
rotating frame (Sagnac effect).

Bernard Chaverondier
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/lebigbang
Compatibility of an interpretation of Alain Aspect experiment as an
action at a distance, in the framework of Aristotle space-time (with
an interpretation of relativist invariance as an intrinsic property of
physical phenomena that actually satisfy it rather than a geometrical
property of a Minkowski space-time that would exist independently of
any phenomenon occurring in it).

"bernard.chaverondier" wrote in message ...
"Old Physics" a écrit dans le message de
m...
IPADE

The speed of sound is about 1100 ft/s (33000 cm/s). Imagine a
modulated source of sound and a microphone at opposite ends of an 11ft
rig. Move the rig in still air at 110 ft/s parallel to its length.
In the direction of travel, the sound will take just over 10% longer
to reach the microphone. In the opposite direction it will take about
10% less.
If the rig were shortened by the Lorentz contraction, about 0.5%,
the two way travel time would remain constant.
If the rig were rotated by 180 degrees, the one way path of sound
would reach the microphone in 20% less time, a 0.002s change.

Provided you use a strongly supersonic signal to perform a synchronization
of your distant clocks. Of course, no difference between the forward travel
time and the backward travel time of your phonons would be noticed if you
perform a relativistic synchronisation process using sound signals.

Bernard Chaverondier
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/lebigbang
Compatibility of Alain Aspect experiment interpretation as an action at a
distance with a formulation of Special Relativity in the framework of
Aristotle space-time (and an interpretation of relativist invariance as an
intrinsic property of phenomena that actually satisfy this invariance).


Unless the clocks change their rates by their position being
rotated, the change in the apparent speed, the distance the sound
travels, will be observable. The difference in the time of arrival
will give the speed of the rig through the air.

"greywolf42" wrote in message ...
Thomas J Roberts wrote in message
...
On 5/26/2004 10:12 PM, Old Physics wrote:
IPADE

[... aether drift experiment]

Such experiments have indeed been performed, and they are all consistent
with a
null result within their resolutions. See the FAQ for references,
specifically
the measurement by Cialdea, Krisher et al, and others in those sections.

Tom's big lie again. Cialdea is not this type of experiment. Cialdae is
simply an interference experiment, not a timing test.

The only attempt at a timing test in the FAQ is Krisher. And Krisher found
the effect. They simply ascribed it to temperature variations ... even
though it wasn't correlated to day/night. And they had to throw out 99% of
their data (and an entire series of runs) in order to suppress what they
called a 'false positive' reading.

Any ether theory that is to survive EXISTING experiments must predict that
the round-trip speed of light is isotropically c [#].

Since there *are* no timing tests of this nature, this is a religious
requirement.

This puts a strong constraint
on the structure of such theories, and one conclusion for all such
theories is that "moving clock" experiments as you describe must also
yield null results.

GIGO.

[#] unless it somehow "lives in the error bars" of existing
experiments -- that implies it violates my condition
above by no less than 6-th order in v/c, which seems
incredibly unlikely.

GIGO

Very interesting. Can you cite a site where this information is
documented (preferably with diagrams).

On 5/27/2004 11:12 PM, chaverondier wrote:
"greywolf42" wrote in message ...
Tom Roberts wrote:
Any ether theory that is to survive EXISTING experiments must predict that
the round-trip speed of light is isotropically c [#].

Since there *are* no timing tests of this nature, this is a religious
requirement.

greywolf42 does not read very well, and here fails to realize that in this
paragraph I was NOT discussing those "timing tests of this nature", but rather
the general structure of ether theories if they are not to be refuted by
existing experiments.


This is not only a religious requirement. This is a false requirement.

Not true. This is a direct requirement of a multitude of experiments [references
in the FAQ], specifically the metrological measurements leading up to the 1983
redefinition of the meter. All of them were round-trip measurements, and all of
them gave a value of c within their resolution. So requiring a theory to
reproduce those results is ESSENTIAL to doing physics.


Relativity says that the light velocity with regard to an evenly
translating frame is measured to be isotropic when Lorentz invariant
phenomena and measurement apparatuses are involved.

Close enough -- the usual way to express this would change "Lorentz invariant"
to "inertial" and omit "phenomena". Of course this is MUCH stronger than
"relativity says", because a multitude of real experiments demonstrate this.


On the contrary
Relativity (whith or without any quantum waves propagation medium, it
doesn't matter for the purpose of the present post) is perfectly up to
account for non reciprocal effects occuring in evenly rotating frames,
that's to say

* the non reciprocal Lorentz time dilation (Langevin paradox)
* the non reciprocal Lorentz contraction in circumferential
direction
* the relativist light velocity anisotropy with regatd to an evenly
rotating frame (Sagnac effect).

Sure. SR can easily account for all that. And your point is???


Tom Roberts

bernard.chaverondier wrote in message
...
"Old Physics" a écrit dans le message de
m...
IPADE

The speed of sound is about 1100 ft/s (33000 cm/s). Imagine a
modulated source of sound and a microphone at opposite ends of an 11ft
rig. Move the rig in still air at 110 ft/s parallel to its length.
In the direction of travel, the sound will take just over 10% longer
to reach the microphone. In the opposite direction it will take about
10% less.
If the rig were shortened by the Lorentz contraction, about 0.5%,
the two way travel time would remain constant.
If the rig were rotated by 180 degrees, the one way path of sound
would reach the microphone in 20% less time, a 0.002s change.

Provided you use a strongly supersonic signal to perform a synchronization
of your distant clocks.

There is no reason to try to impose Einstein synchronization on the clocks.

Of course, no difference between the forward travel
time and the backward travel time of your phonons would be noticed if you
perform a relativistic synchronisation process using sound signals.

Precisely why such a procedure is specious.

--
greywolf42
ubi dubium ibi libertas
{remove planet for return e-mail}