On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:44:23 -0700, Mark Fergerson
wrote:
I agree, and that's one of the things that continues to
fascinate me. I don't have great reflexes, so nikkyo

You don't? How hard are you to throw? ;)

Sometimes hard, as a matter of fact. If a beginner has been taught
that "you pull here and he'll spin around that way", and there I am
not spinning that way, the beginner ends up lost trying to figure out
how to do the throw. There's always a way of course. Aikido is all
about adjusting on the fly. And also by my not reacting in the
"natural" way, I tend to be left in positions where I can be easily
hurt. I spend at least as much effort studying the throwee role as the
thrower, trying to figure out where I'm supposed to be "naturally"
going and why, and I ask a lot of questions about that role as well.

- Randy

Randy Poe wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:44:23 -0700, Mark Fergerson
wrote:

I agree, and that's one of the things that continues to
fascinate me. I don't have great reflexes, so nikkyo

You don't? How hard are you to throw? ;)


Sometimes hard, as a matter of fact. If a beginner has been taught
that "you pull here and he'll spin around that way", and there I am
not spinning that way, the beginner ends up lost trying to figure out
how to do the throw. There's always a way of course. Aikido is all
about adjusting on the fly. And also by my not reacting in the
"natural" way, I tend to be left in positions where I can be easily
hurt. I spend at least as much effort studying the throwee role as the
thrower, trying to figure out where I'm supposed to be "naturally"
going and why, and I ask a lot of questions about that role as well.

Hmm. Interesting, you must be lots of fun to practice with!

BTW, a quick Google on kotegaeshi brought up some
interesting pages, including this one which has a very clear
Quicktime VR:

https://www.sfaikikai.com/AOL/YYsk_kotegaeshi_VR.html

just click at R and L frame edges to go frame-by-frame. I
see a hip-twist in the beginning (as attacker brings his L
foot forward) to gain position, and another toward the end
(as attacker finishes pivoting) to gain leverage for the
final throw.

ISTM that attacker appears to maintain balance (but not
control over his rotation) right up to the point defender
moves his R foot forward while rotating attacker's wrist
during that last hip-twist; after that attacker is already
falling because his one-point is moved beyond his own R
foot. No great force appears to be involved at any time. It
appears to work by giving attacker angular momentum around a
vertical axis (the arm pull), then making him "precess"
during the wrist twist so that his rotation is around a
horizontal axis so he cannot maintain balance. There's even
a reversal of his "spin vector" as he goes down, keeping his
L hand (which might contain a weapon) away from you.

(Incidentally, I was taught a slightly "gentler" version
of this throw that leaves attacker lying on his R side. In
the video, defender steps much farther back with L foot as
he bows, practically leaving no option but to flip attacker
completely over. Also note that attacker's head hits the mat
first; ouch!)

Mark L. Fergerson

Vern wrote:
Mark Fergerson wrote:

I started my inquiry into chi energy, ley lines, eloptic radiation,
orgone, etc. by looking for a modern physics explanation several years
ago and came to realize that there is none.


Me too (nothing to explain, that is), except I still haven't figured
out how the hell seeds sprout and _turn green_ in the dark when you do
Hieronymus' original experiment. (I never did get his eponymous
Machine to work repeatably though).


You might be interested in the work of Bill Jensen who has compiled all
of Hieronymus' papers and data on his devices. I bought a CD from
Jensen loaded with information. He evidently bought it all from H's
widow, who may still be living in Florida. Jensen has a website, but I
don't have it bookmarked.

This it?

http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...mus/WebTGH.htm

I may buy his CD if only to get the Analyzer I built
working. I note he mentions things _not_ to do, that I did.

Mark L. Fergerson

Mark Fergerson

No practicioner of acupuncture would even _consider_
alternatives, or expressing less than total confidence (as
do Western doctors) for the very good reason that he had no
background to support the idea that doing so would give
useful results. He had something that worked, and figured he
understood it well enough.



Bill Hobba wrote:
I am not so sure of that. My acupuncturist is highly trained in both
acupuncture and western medicine - indeed she is also an MD. When
explaining what she is doing she says - Western medicine says this -
Eastern
medicine says something else. When patients come with cancer she
refuses to
treat them unless they are under the care of an oncologist who she
immediately referrers them to. She claims she can help relieve the
symptoms
of chemo therapy or to recover quicker form operations but can not cure
cancer.

Mark Fergerson replied:

One must cover one's butt, regardless of cultural niceties.

Sure - but knowing this person as I do I also know that is something she
firmly believes. She will not treat cancer patients with acupuncture except
to relieve the effects of chemo or hasten surgical recovery. As an MD she
will prescribe medicine under the guidance of an oncologist but will not
treat cancer patients directly.

Mark Fergerson wrote::
Besides, explanations (Western vs. Eastern medicine
saying this or that) matters little unless the explanations
have predictive power.

Not true - all you need is statistical evidence that the method works. And
we have that with acupuncture. As explained previously I am on
methotextrate to treat psoriatic arthritis - as my rheumy explained its
exact mechanism is unknown - all they know is that in 60-70% of cases it
works (it is basically a folic acid antagonist - you take extra folic acid
to counter that effect - but for some reason they do not currently know it
helps inflammatory arthritic conditions).

Mark Fergerson wrote::
'Gray's Anatomy tells me clearly where to find the sternocleidomastoid and
how to identify it; how does acupuncture explain how to find meridians, and
how to
identify them?'

They have their explanations and within those they can precisely explain
what they are doing and why - however I freely admit that the eastern
medicine explanations of accupunture are hogwash. I do not believe in a Qi
that flows through the body. However I do believe in the statistical
evidence I have seen of its efficacy. Tell me - can you show me a textbook
that describes the exact mechanism methdextrate helps psoriasis? That would
mean under you reasoning because we do not know exactly how it works we
should not use it despite the statistical evidence of its efficacy - how
silly.

Mark Fergerson wrote::
My acupuncturist was trained in both eastern and western medicine at
Shanghai university. She has a different view. Basically young China
prefer western medicine until they get some kind of chronic illness. In
which case they turn to acupuncture and generally change their ways.

And they were raised where?


They were raised in China. The young people are more influenced by western
ways these days (at least according to my acupuncturist) and so prefer
western medicine. However as soon as western medicine fails then they turn
to acupuncture - just like happened to me.

Thanks
Bill

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:19:13 -0700, Mark Fergerson
wrote:
https://www.sfaikikai.com/AOL/YYsk_kotegaeshi_VR.html

just click at R and L frame edges to go frame-by-frame. I
see a hip-twist in the beginning (as attacker brings his L
foot forward) to gain position, and another toward the end
(as attacker finishes pivoting) to gain leverage for the
final throw.

ISTM that attacker appears to maintain balance (but not
control over his rotation) right up to the point defender
moves his R foot forward while rotating attacker's wrist
during that last hip-twist; after that attacker is already
falling because his one-point is moved beyond his own R
foot. No great force appears to be involved at any time. It
appears to work by giving attacker angular momentum around a
vertical axis (the arm pull), then making him "precess"
during the wrist twist so that his rotation is around a
horizontal axis so he cannot maintain balance. There's even
a reversal of his "spin vector" as he goes down, keeping his
L hand (which might contain a weapon) away from you.

(Incidentally, I was taught a slightly "gentler" version
of this throw that leaves attacker lying on his R side. In
the video, defender steps much farther back with L foot as
he bows, practically leaving no option but to flip attacker
completely over. Also note that attacker's head hits the mat
first; ouch!)

I think that's the key. To avoid a painful twist, the head and arm
follow the wrist around. You're essentially being driven to put your
own head down next to your own feet. Since you don't really bend that
way, the feet go up and over. This rings a bell -- there are other
throws that work that way, with somebody gently taking your arm and
setting it down on the ground. So really it's your own leg muscles
trying to compensate for other things going on.

I have a reflex that makes me fight going over like this, and it
actually hurts worse not to flip. You can get your neck caught in very
nasty ways. I have to consciously remember to relax and let things
flow. Watch the attacker again; his left arm comes out and slaps the
mat to take the momentum. It's actually a controlled fall.

BTW, this is Yamada-sensei, 8th-degree black belt, student of O-Sensei
and a teacher of my Sensei. A good person to watch for technique.

- Randy

Mark Fergerson wrote in message ...
Vern wrote:

You might be interested in the work of Bill Jensen who has compiled all
of Hieronymus' papers and data on his devices. I bought a CD from
Jensen loaded with information. He evidently bought it all from H's
widow, who may still be living in Florida. Jensen has a website, but I
don't have it bookmarked.

This it?

http://home.earthlink.net/~debbymayb...mus/WebTGH.htm

I may buy his CD if only to get the Analyzer I built
working. I note he mentions things _not_ to do, that I did.

Mark L. Fergerson

Yep, that's it. He also has some spare tubes which are the right
type. At one point he told me that he had a working device for sale.

Bill Hobba wrote:
Mark Fergerson


No practicioner of acupuncture would even _consider_
alternatives, or expressing less than total confidence (as
do Western doctors) for the very good reason that he had no
background to support the idea that doing so would give
useful results. He had something that worked, and figured he
understood it well enough.



Bill Hobba wrote:

I am not so sure of that. My acupuncturist is highly trained in both
acupuncture and western medicine - indeed she is also an MD. When
explaining what she is doing she says - Western medicine says this -
Eastern
medicine says something else. When patients come with cancer she
refuses to
treat them unless they are under the care of an oncologist who she
immediately referrers them to. She claims she can help relieve the
symptoms
of chemo therapy or to recover quicker form operations but can not cure
cancer.

I didn't screw the spacing up; it's browser clash

I should point out that my statement above applied mainly
to the developmental period of acupuncture. Now that Eastern
and Western medicine are comparing notes the meaning of
"alternative" is a bit fuzzier especially when it comes to
the areas of treatment you mention and say, pain relief.

Does she try to explain how acupuncture works _in Western
terms_?

Mark Fergerson replied:

One must cover one's butt, regardless of cultural niceties.


Sure - but knowing this person as I do I also know that is something she
firmly believes. She will not treat cancer patients with acupuncture except
to relieve the effects of chemo or hasten surgical recovery. As an MD she
will prescribe medicine under the guidance of an oncologist but will not
treat cancer patients directly.

So the AMA has strict guidelines about CYA. Now that
acupuncture and acupressure have gained "semi-accepted"
status, the same applies. One treads extra carefully on
suspect eggshells.

Mark Fergerson wrote::

Besides, explanations (Western vs. Eastern medicine
saying this or that) matters little unless the explanations
have predictive power.


Not true - all you need is statistical evidence that the method works. And
we have that with acupuncture. As explained previously I am on
methotextrate to treat psoriatic arthritis - as my rheumy explained its
exact mechanism is unknown - all they know is that in 60-70% of cases it
works (it is basically a folic acid antagonist - you take extra folic acid
to counter that effect - but for some reason they do not currently know it
helps inflammatory arthritic conditions).

Not _currently_. Yet Western medicine has methods of
finding out, whereas Traditional Chinese medicine doesn't.
As time progresses those statistics are narrowed down
towards certainty by gaining deeper understanding of the
horribly complex biochemistry going on, but Traditional
Chinese medicine never developed the tools to gain that
understanding. That has started changing since the AMA
decided that it does indeed work at least as well as Western
medicine for some things, but slowly. ISTM it's not because
either side distrust the other, but because the descriptive
languages each side uses are incompatible. After all, look
what started this thread. Does Qi have a place in serious
medical discussion? Does it exist at all?

Mark Fergerson wrote::
'Gray's Anatomy tells me clearly where to find the sternocleidomastoid and
how to identify it; how does acupuncture explain how to find meridians, and
how to
identify them?'

They have their explanations and within those they can precisely explain
what they are doing and why - however I freely admit that the eastern
medicine explanations of accupunture are hogwash. I do not believe in a Qi
that flows through the body. However I do believe in the statistical
evidence I have seen of its efficacy. Tell me - can you show me a textbook
that describes the exact mechanism methdextrate helps psoriasis? That would
mean under you reasoning because we do not know exactly how it works we
should not use it despite the statistical evidence of its efficacy - how
silly.

Not at all; it's a matter of degree of confidence. No
doctor will hesitate to prescribe aspirin for say
blood-thinning, yet that's a side-effect of its main usage
(pain relief).

The reams (hell, libraries) of documentation that support
the degree of confidence your doctor has in prescribing for
your psoriasis could not be generated by Traditional Chinese
medicine, and the degree of confidence an acupuncturist has
in their technique is supported by what Western medicine
would call apocryphal evidence.

This is changing slowly as I said; neither side wants
their assumptions challenged. But being able to find
meridians with an objective instrument would be helpful to
_both_ sides.

Mark Fergerson wrote::

My acupuncturist was trained in both eastern and western medicine at
Shanghai university. She has a different view. Basically young China
prefer western medicine until they get some kind of chronic illness. In
which case they turn to acupuncture and generally change their ways.

And they were raised where?

They were raised in China. The young people are more influenced by western
ways these days (at least according to my acupuncturist) and so prefer
western medicine. However as soon as western medicine fails then they turn
to acupuncture - just like happened to me.

They turn to acupuncture because it's their cultural
default; you did because it worked well enough after your
cultural default (Western medicine) failed, yes?

Now consider your counterpart in China, getting
acupuncture treatments for psoriasis; if the treatment
fails, what are the odds the acupuncturist will send the
patient to a Western doctor? What are the odds the patient
will go willingly?

Look, the bottom line is that you should use what works;
explanations can wait in life-or-death or serious pain
situations, but it's nice to know _how_ a treatment works if
only so you can watch for side-effects.

Mark L. Fergerson

Randy Poe wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:19:13 -0700, Mark Fergerson
wrote:

https://www.sfaikikai.com/AOL/YYsk_kotegaeshi_VR.html

just click at R and L frame edges to go frame-by-frame. I
see a hip-twist in the beginning (as attacker brings his L
foot forward) to gain position, and another toward the end
(as attacker finishes pivoting) to gain leverage for the
final throw.

(I was trying to figure out which hip-twist you thought
might be involved in the possible force-amplifying you
mentioned.)

ISTM that attacker appears to maintain balance (but not
control over his rotation) right up to the point defender
moves his R foot forward while rotating attacker's wrist
during that last hip-twist; after that attacker is already
falling because his one-point is moved beyond his own R
foot. No great force appears to be involved at any time. It
appears to work by giving attacker angular momentum around a
vertical axis (the arm pull), then making him "precess"
during the wrist twist so that his rotation is around a
horizontal axis so he cannot maintain balance. There's even
a reversal of his "spin vector" as he goes down, keeping his
L hand (which might contain a weapon) away from you.

(Incidentally, I was taught a slightly "gentler" version
of this throw that leaves attacker lying on his R side. In
the video, defender steps much farther back with L foot as
he bows, practically leaving no option but to flip attacker
completely over. Also note that attacker's head hits the mat
first; ouch!)


I think that's the key. To avoid a painful twist, the head and arm
follow the wrist around. You're essentially being driven to put your
own head down next to your own feet. Since you don't really bend that
way, the feet go up and over. This rings a bell -- there are other
throws that work that way, with somebody gently taking your arm and
setting it down on the ground. So really it's your own leg muscles
trying to compensate for other things going on.

I have a reflex that makes me fight going over like this, and it
actually hurts worse not to flip. You can get your neck caught in very
nasty ways. I have to consciously remember to relax and let things
flow. Watch the attacker again; his left arm comes out and slaps the
mat to take the momentum. It's actually a controlled fall.

Ok, so it's basically a matter of trying to maintain
balace at any cost? That's what I thought; we try to keep
our feet under us, if that fails we plant an arm or hand,
whatever, to keep from lying down (the instinctively
"defenseless" position). Failing that we fling our feet to
where they'll be easier to get back under us. Is that the
source of your troublesome reflex? Were you told to do more
rolls and falls? I was, because I had a hard time realizing
that I wasn't defenseless lying on my back.

"It actually hurts worse not to flip" is the whole idea
though. I also remember being told that many moves were not
to be used on those who don't spend a lot of time fighting
precisely because they don't know how to fall, which I take
to mean that they haven't developed learned reflexes (go
ahead and fall properly) to displace their natural reflexes
(stay on your feet). The main reason I took up Aikido was
because I didn't want to hurt anyone while ensuring _I_
wasn't hurt. Kinda difficult to reach Enlightenment if
you're dead...

philosophical digression begins

I appreciate the convergence of Buddhism and Aikido; the
Buddha taught that suffering can be avoided, and Aikido is
all about getting an attacker to stop attacking by getting
him to avoid physical pain. The emotional pain of failure is
transitory though, and can be avoided by not attacking at
all, which requires the identification and rejection of the
attachments we have to the reasons for attacking others.

Hence I learned to see attackers as students; they can
benefit from what I know, so it's my duty to teach them.

Defensive techniques can be gentle or brutal, depending
on how difficult a student a given attacker is. ;)

philosophical digression ends

BTW, this is Yamada-sensei, 8th-degree black belt, student of O-Sensei
and a teacher of my Sensei. A good person to watch for technique.

The Internet is shrinking the world very quickly!

Mark L. Fergerson

Mark Fergerson wrote:
I didn't screw the spacing up; it's browser clash

Yep - and I hate it as well.

Mark Fergerson wrote:
I should point out that my statement above applied mainly
to the developmental period of acupuncture. Now that Eastern
and Western medicine are comparing notes the meaning of
"alternative" is a bit fuzzier especially when it comes to
the areas of treatment you mention and say, pain relief.

Agreed.

Mark Fergerson
Does she try to explain how acupuncture works _in Western
terms_?

No she does not - apart from vague reference to increasing endomorphism and
the bodies natural corticosteroids. However that is something that I have
become interested - hence my reply. My phsyscitiarist explained to me that
a lot of this had been sorted out by the discovery of gates in the body the
controlled things like the endomorphism levels etc and these cages can be
affected by acupuncture. Thought he said the psychiatrist Eric Kiddel had
done a lot of work here and had won a Nobel prize for it. This is what I
stated by others (correctly) checks the facts. Eric Kiddell did not win the
Nobel prize for this work. Now what I am doing is waiting to see my
physiatrist again (I am not going to pay for a visit just for this matter)
to find the true facts.

Mark Fergerson replied:

One must cover one's butt, regardless of cultural niceties.



Bill Hobba wrote:
Sure - but knowing this person as I do I also know that is something she
firmly believes. She will not treat cancer patients with acupuncture
except
to relieve the effects of chemo or hasten surgical recovery. As an MD
she
will prescribe medicine under the guidance of an oncologist but will not
treat cancer patients directly.

Mark Fergerson replied:
So the AMA has strict guidelines about CYA. Now that
acupuncture and acupressure have gained "semi-accepted"
status, the same applies. One treads extra carefully on
suspect eggshells.

Sure.

Mark Fergerson wrote::

Besides, explanations (Western vs. Eastern medicine
saying this or that) matters little unless the explanations
have predictive power.


Bill Hobba wrote:
Not true - all you need is statistical evidence that the method works.
And
we have that with acupuncture. As explained previously I am on
methotextrate to treat psoriatic arthritis - as my rheumy explained its
exact mechanism is unknown - all they know is that in 60-70% of cases it
works (it is basically a folic acid antagonist - you take extra folic
acid
to counter that effect - but for some reason they do not currently know
it
helps inflammatory arthritic conditions).


Mark Fergerson replied:
Not _currently_. Yet Western medicine has methods of
finding out, whereas Traditional Chinese medicine doesn't.

Agreed.

Mark Fergerson replied:
As time progresses those statistics are narrowed down
towards certainty by gaining deeper understanding of the
horribly complex biochemistry going on, but Traditional
Chinese medicine never developed the tools to gain that
understanding.

Agreed.

Mark Fergerson replied:
'That has started changing since the AMA decided that it does indeed work at
least as well as Western medicine for some things, but slowly. ISTM it's not
because either side distrust the other, but because the descriptive
languages each side uses are incompatible.'

Absolutely - and since I hold science very dear you can guess which side I
come down on.

Mark Fergerson replied:
'After all, look what started this thread. Does Qi have a place in serious
medical discussion? Does it exist at all?'

I do not believe it does. But do effects attributed to Qi - I think so.

Mark Fergerson replied:
Mark Fergerson wrote::
'Gray's Anatomy tells me clearly where to find the sternocleidomastoid
and
how to identify it; how does acupuncture explain how to find meridians,
and
how to
identify them?'


Bill Hobba wrote:
They have their explanations and within those they can precisely explain
what they are doing and why - however I freely admit that the eastern
medicine explanations of accupunture are hogwash. I do not believe in a
Qi
that flows through the body. However I do believe in the statistical
evidence I have seen of its efficacy. Tell me - can you show me a
textbook
that describes the exact mechanism methdextrate helps psoriasis? That
would
mean under you reasoning because we do not know exactly how it works we
should not use it despite the statistical evidence of its efficacy - how
silly.


Mark Fergerson replied:
Not at all; it's a matter of degree of confidence. No
doctor will hesitate to prescribe aspirin for say
blood-thinning, yet that's a side-effect of its main usage
(pain relief).

Agreed.

Mark Fergerson replied:
The reams (hell, libraries) of documentation that support
the degree of confidence your doctor has in prescribing for
your psoriasis could not be generated by Traditional Chinese
medicine, and the degree of confidence an acupuncturist has
in their technique is supported by what Western medicine
would call apocryphal evidence.

Yep. it is only in recent time Chinese medicine has subjected their claims
to the statistical methods of the west. But even those studies are frought
with danger - it is really not p[ossible to do double blind studies because
you either get accupunture or not.

Bill Hobba wrote:
They were raised in China. The young people are more influenced by
western
ways these days (at least according to my acupuncturist) and so prefer
western medicine. However as soon as western medicine fails then they
turn
to acupuncture - just like happened to me.

Mark Fergerson replied:
They turn to acupuncture because it's their cultural
default; you did because it worked well enough after your
cultural default (Western medicine) failed, yes?

Yep.

Mark Fergerson replied:
Now consider your counterpart in China, getting
acupuncture treatments for psoriasis; if the treatment
fails, what are the odds the acupuncturist will send the
patient to a Western doctor? What are the odds the patient
will go willingly?

Well actually it is not that clear cut. In China according to my
acupuncturist you have two doors you go through when you see a doctor - one
for TCM and another for WM. They usually work as a team with both sides
having considerable training in the others. Also in many cases they are the
same person - many doctors in China are trained in and practice both - such
as my acupuncturist.

Mark Fergerson replied:
Look, the bottom line is that you should use what works;
explanations can wait in life-or-death or serious pain
situations, but it's nice to know _how_ a treatment works if
only so you can watch for side-effects.

Yep.

Excellent discussion - I greatly appreciate Marks comments.

Bill

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:01:49 +1000, Bill Hobba wrote:
Mark Fergerson wrote:
I didn't screw the spacing up; it's browser clash

Yep - and I hate it as well.


FWIW, only Outlook Express has that idiotic quote-wrapping problem. You
might want to try a better newsreader.


--

- Laurel * * * http://amberdine.com