Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?

Stephen Kearney

"Old Physics" wrote in message
om...
Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?

Excellant question. I haven't sat down to do the math so I'm assuming your
original figures are correct. Regarding the last I have a question for you.
Did you take into account the fact that some of that energy can't go into
increasing the size of the black hole? Some of it will go into the kinetic
energy of the black hole.

Pmb

Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?

Excellant question. I haven't sat down to do the math so I'm assuming your
original figures are correct. Regarding the last I have a question for you.
Did you take into account the fact that some of that energy can't go into
increasing the size of the black hole? Some of it will go into the kinetic
energy of the black hole.

Pmb

Peter,

Actually I should have asked if the BH would be eight miles in
diameter, since the collisional energy will be twice the sum of the
energies of the protons. As for your question, that was my second
question. Would the BH grow or move or a little of both. My guess is
that it would move, the kenetic energy of the incoming would become
the kenetic energy of the BH.
I hope that some of the luminaries of this group will formulate an
answer.

Highest regards,
Stephen Kearney

Dear Old Physics:

"Old Physics" wrote in message
om...
Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a
BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?

Excellant question. I haven't sat down to do the math so I'm assuming
your
original figures are correct. Regarding the last I have a question for
you.
Did you take into account the fact that some of that energy can't go
into
increasing the size of the black hole? Some of it will go into the
kinetic
energy of the black hole.

Pmb

Peter,

Actually I should have asked if the BH would be eight miles in
diameter, since the collisional energy will be twice the sum of the
energies of the protons. As for your question, that was my second
question. Would the BH grow or move or a little of both. My guess is
that it would move, the kenetic energy of the incoming would become
the kenetic energy of the BH.
I hope that some of the luminaries of this group will formulate an
answer.

I'm not a luminary. Conservation of momentum says the BH will move. At
some point, I think you should push in some high energy electrons though...
just so we don't have to worry about deflecting those protons away! ;}

David A. Smith

\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:PNA0b.5665$Qy4.3254@fed1read05...
Dear Old Physics:

"Old Physics" wrote in message
om...
Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a
BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?

Excellant question. I haven't sat down to do the math so I'm assuming
your
original figures are correct. Regarding the last I have a question for
you.
Did you take into account the fact that some of that energy can't go
into
increasing the size of the black hole? Some of it will go into the
kinetic
energy of the black hole.

Pmb

Peter,

Actually I should have asked if the BH would be eight miles in
diameter, since the collisional energy will be twice the sum of the
energies of the protons. As for your question, that was my second
question. Would the BH grow or move or a little of both. My guess is
that it would move, the kenetic energy of the incoming would become
the kenetic energy of the BH.
I hope that some of the luminaries of this group will formulate an
answer.

I'm not a luminary. Conservation of momentum says the BH will move. At
some point, I think you should push in some high energy electrons though...
just so we don't have to worry about deflecting those protons away! ;}

David A. Smith

David,

You always give illumination, same thing in my book. I agree with
your prognosis.
Concerning those two protons, would you agree that they would be
repelled away from each other at a rate of 10^57 times slower relative
to the BH's frame of reference? It is a relief that you didn't raise
the objection that no way could the experiment be done and accepted
that in theory this thought experiment is legit. Are you sure that I
am not leading you into quick sand where no Carlip, Roberts or Bilge
would dare go?
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread",

Thanks for the rush,
Stephen Kearney

Dear Old Physics:

"Old Physics" wrote in message
om...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:PNA0b.5665$Qy4.3254@fed1read05...
....
I'm not a luminary. Conservation of momentum says the BH will move.
At
some point, I think you should push in some high energy electrons
though...
just so we don't have to worry about deflecting those protons away! ;}

You always give illumination, same thing in my book. I agree with
your prognosis.
Concerning those two protons, would you agree that they would be
repelled away from each other at a rate of 10^57 times slower relative
to the BH's frame of reference?

The accumulated mass/energy would overcome the charge difference, yes.
Don't think the "slower" thing applies, since we cannot say what happens
inside the horizon...

It is a relief that you didn't raise
the objection that no way could the experiment be done and accepted
that in theory this thought experiment is legit.

*Delivering* the particles with that energy is an "engineering problem".
The "Oh My God" particle would be a candidate, but is still way too slow.

Are you sure that I
am not leading you into quick sand where no Carlip, Roberts or Bilge
would dare go?
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread",

When I'm over my head, I'll let you know.

I'm over my head. ;}

David A. Smith

\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:xLD0b.5747$Qy4.4209@fed1read05...
Dear Old Physics:

...
I'm not a luminary. Conservation of momentum says the BH will move.
At
some point, I think you should push in some high energy electrons
though...
just so we don't have to worry about deflecting those protons away! ;}

You always give illumination, same thing in my book. I agree with
your prognosis.
Concerning those two protons, would you agree that they would be
repelled away from each other at a rate of 10^57 times slower relative
to the BH's frame of reference?

The accumulated mass/energy would overcome the charge difference, yes.
Don't think the "slower" thing applies, since we cannot say what happens
inside the horizon...

I should have made myself clear, I meant the two new protons as
they traveled parallel, would be repelled from each other 10^57 times
slower from our FoR. Their inertial mass would appear to have
increased or their charge decreased.

It is a relief that you didn't raise
the objection that no way could the experiment be done and accepted
that in theory this thought experiment is legit.

*Delivering* the particles with that energy is an "engineering problem".
The "Oh My God" particle would be a candidate, but is still way too slow.

Are you sure that I
am not leading you into quick sand where no Carlip, Roberts or Bilge
would dare go?
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread",

When I'm over my head, I'll let you know.

I'm over my head. ;}

David A. Smith

Judgeing by Dr. Carlip's answer to my inertial vs gravitional mass
post, he's not going anywhere near this quicksand.

I have a mouth full of sand. I need to find a tarbaby.

Stephe Kearney

Dear Old Physics:

"Old Physics" wrote in message
om...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:xLD0b.5747$Qy4.4209@fed1read05...
....
The accumulated mass/energy would overcome the charge difference, yes.
Don't think the "slower" thing applies, since we cannot say what
happens
inside the horizon...

I should have made myself clear, I meant the two new protons as
they traveled parallel, would be repelled from each other 10^57 times
slower from our FoR. Their inertial mass would appear to have
increased or their charge decreased.

Or they're time dilated so that the rest frame reaction is slowed to
acheive the effect. I see "slower" now.

Now. One charge moving at gamma of 10^57 and one at rest, just offset a
little (so they don't hit). How much and how fast is the (initial) rest
charge displaced? I don't expect an answer, just another offshoot to
answer the "charge reduction" POV. Charge on one hand, and a large
concentration of energy/mass on the other.

David A. Smith

Old Physics wrote:

Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?


The question is very speculative since it is likely to send energyout in
the form of lots of elementary particles (including photons
and gravitions). So the end result of this will not contain
the energy of the two colliding particles.

The other problem with it is where are you going to find these
two such energetic protons in any frame of reference?

John Anderson

...
The accumulated mass/energy would overcome the charge difference, yes.
Don't think the "slower" thing applies, since we cannot say what
happens
inside the horizon...

I should have made myself clear, I meant the two new protons as
they traveled parallel, would be repelled from each other 10^57 times
slower from our FoR. Their inertial mass would appear to have
increased or their charge decreased.

Or they're time dilated so that the rest frame reaction is slowed to
acheive the effect. I see "slower" now.

Now. One charge moving at gamma of 10^57 and one at rest, just offset a
little (so they don't hit). How much and how fast is the (initial) rest
charge displaced? I don't expect an answer, just another offshoot to
answer the "charge reduction" POV. Charge on one hand, and a large
concentration of energy/mass on the other.

David A. Smith

Maybe you could help me form a basis for the answer. In the
original problem the protons have only their rest mass untill they
collide. Does this mean that only relative inertial and not
gravitational mass increases with velocity? Miss by a micron, miss by
a mile?

Stephen Kearney