Dear Old Physics:

"Old Physics" wrote in message
om...
....
Now. One charge moving at gamma of 10^57 and one at rest, just offset a
little (so they don't hit). How much and how fast is the (initial)
rest
charge displaced? I don't expect an answer, just another offshoot to
answer the "charge reduction" POV. Charge on one hand, and a large
concentration of energy/mass on the other.

Maybe you could help me form a basis for the answer.

Oh sure! Give me the hard part.

In the
original problem the protons have only their rest mass untill they
collide.

[Sound of me slapping my Pmb voodoo doll, not hard, just for effect]
In the Center of Momentum frame, however, there are two energy-sets
approaching the CoM at *nearly* c.
Each energy-set has 10^57 GeV. The momentum is net zero after the
collision (as it was before). Energy is not conserved in an inelastic
collision. I don't see a place for "rest mass" in this scenario until
after the collision.

You may also want to note that a "point entity" of 10^66 eV (properly
formatted) would pretty much *be* a black hole...

Does this mean that only relative inertial and not
gravitational mass increases with velocity?

I have asked the question, or ones like it here, and received various
learned answers. And they have since evaporated from the fields of my
mind.

Think of it like this. SR doesn't deal with curvature, so the velocity
issue isn't the right "word".

Try: How much energy (read this as gravitational mass if you like)
"evaporates" from the collision to two equally massive BHs, each with 10^66
eV? It is not a trival problem.

Miss by a micron, miss by
a mile?

With this much energy, a miss is still a hit.

David A. Smith

\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:Guf1b.6824$Qy4.1050@fed1read05...
Dear Old Physics:

"Old Physics" wrote in message
om...
...
Now. One charge moving at gamma of 10^57 and one at rest, just offset a
little (so they don't hit). How much and how fast is the (initial)
rest
charge displaced? I don't expect an answer, just another offshoot to
answer the "charge reduction" POV. Charge on one hand, and a large
concentration of energy/mass on the other.

Maybe you could help me form a basis for the answer.

Oh sure! Give me the hard part.

In the
original problem the protons have only their rest mass untill they
collide.

[Sound of me slapping my Pmb voodoo doll, not hard, just for effect]
In the Center of Momentum frame, however, there are two energy-sets
approaching the CoM at *nearly* c.
Each energy-set has 10^57 GeV. The momentum is net zero after the
collision (as it was before). Energy is not conserved in an inelastic
collision. I don't see a place for "rest mass" in this scenario until
after the collision.

You may also want to note that a "point entity" of 10^66 eV (properly
formatted) would pretty much *be* a black hole...

Does this mean that only relative inertial and not
gravitational mass increases with velocity?

I have asked the question, or ones like it here, and received various
learned answers. And they have since evaporated from the fields of my
mind.

Think of it like this. SR doesn't deal with curvature, so the velocity
issue isn't the right "word".

Try: How much energy (read this as gravitational mass if you like)
"evaporates" from the collision to two equally massive BHs, each with 10^66
eV? It is not a trival problem.

Miss by a micron, miss by
a mile?

With this much energy, a miss is still a hit.

David A. Smith

So the protons would be gravitationally attracted to each other?
Each would see the other as having a mass of 10^66 eV from its own
FoR? It is not a trivial problem.

Stephen Kearney

John Anderson wrote in message ...
Old Physics wrote:

Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?


The question is very speculative since it is likely to send energyout in
the form of lots of elementary particles (including photons
and gravitions). So the end result of this will not contain
the energy of the two colliding particles.

The other problem with it is where are you going to find these
two such energetic protons in any frame of reference?

John Anderson

It is a thought experiment only, Dr. Anderson. If the resultant
mass is equal to a BH in excess of eight miles in diameter, how can
anything but gravitons escape? And wouldn't those gravitons be the
source of its gravity?

Stephen Kearney

Dear Old Physics:

"Old Physics" wrote in message
...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:Guf1b.6824$Qy4.1050@fed1read05...
....
Maybe you could help me form a basis for the answer.

Oh sure! Give me the hard part.
....
So the protons would be gravitationally attracted to each other?
Each would see the other as having a mass of 10^66 eV from its own
FoR? It is not a trivial problem.

I frankly don't know. I don't see how they could not be. Considering the
number of suns consumed to get these puppies up to speed. I think the
hesitance is in the semantics. I think we are not yet speaking formally
enough, and "loose talk" will allow us to see problems where there are
none... except our own words.

David A. Smith

Old Physics wrote:

John Anderson wrote in message ...
Old Physics wrote:

Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?


The question is very speculative since it is likely to send energyout in
the form of lots of elementary particles (including photons
and gravitions). So the end result of this will not contain
the energy of the two colliding particles.

The other problem with it is where are you going to find these
two such energetic protons in any frame of reference?

John Anderson

It is a thought experiment only, Dr. Anderson. If the resultant
mass is equal to a BH in excess of eight miles in diameter, how can
anything but gravitons escape? And wouldn't those gravitons be the
source of its gravity?


Most of the energy gets radiated before the protons collide, not after.So most anything can get
out. Even after a black hole is formed,
it can still have an electric charge, so that it has an EM field.

Second, I think you have some severe misconceptions about gravitons
and black holes. Black holes are stationary solutions of Einstein's
equations. They have nothing to do with quantum theory, nor do
they pretend to explain how changes in the field are propagated.

John Anderson

John Anderson wrote in message ...
Old Physics wrote:

John Anderson wrote in message ...
Old Physics wrote:

Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?


The question is very speculative since it is likely to send energyout in
the form of lots of elementary particles (including photons
and gravitions). So the end result of this will not contain
the energy of the two colliding particles.

The other problem with it is where are you going to find these
two such energetic protons in any frame of reference?

John Anderson

It is a thought experiment only, Dr. Anderson. If the resultant
mass is equal to a BH in excess of eight miles in diameter, how can
anything but gravitons escape? And wouldn't those gravitons be the
source of its gravity?


Most of the energy gets radiated before the protons collide, not after.So most anything can get
out. Even after a black hole is formed,
it can still have an electric charge, so that it has an EM field.

Second, I think you have some severe misconceptions about gravitons
and black holes. Black holes are stationary solutions of Einstein's
equations. They have nothing to do with quantum theory, nor do
they pretend to explain how changes in the field are propagated.

John Anderson

Which leads to another question. Why are gravitons necessary at
all when the curvature of space is what explains gravity? sk

Old Physics wrote:
Which leads to another question. Why are gravitons necessary at
all when the curvature of space is what explains gravity? sk

Right now three of the four basic forces are described or explained by
some flavor of quantum theory. The interactions are explained in terms
of exchanges of bosons. These are the exlectromagnetic force, the strong
force and the weak force.

That leaves gravity. At this juncture there is no working quantum theory
of gravitation.

The idea is to get one theory that encompasses all the known natural
force types.

Since there is only one nature, there should be only one theory or at
least one type of theory that explains all the most fundemantal basic
aspects of nature and among these are the four force types. Those would
make all basic physics describable in terms of particles and their
interactions.

Bob Kolker

Old Physics wrote:

John Anderson wrote in message ...
Old Physics wrote:

John Anderson wrote in message ...
Old Physics wrote:

Extreme Physics

Imagine a collision of two 10^57 Gev protons, they would form a BH
with a diameter of almost four miles. Now add two more with the same
energy but moving in the same direction into the BH.
Would the BH increase in size to eight miles or would it be
accelerated to 86.6% the SoL?


The question is very speculative since it is likely to send energyout in
the form of lots of elementary particles (including photons
and gravitions). So the end result of this will not contain
the energy of the two colliding particles.

The other problem with it is where are you going to find these
two such energetic protons in any frame of reference?

John Anderson

It is a thought experiment only, Dr. Anderson. If the resultant
mass is equal to a BH in excess of eight miles in diameter, how can
anything but gravitons escape? And wouldn't those gravitons be the
source of its gravity?


Most of the energy gets radiated before the protons collide, not after.So most anything can get
out. Even after a black hole is formed,
it can still have an electric charge, so that it has an EM field.

Second, I think you have some severe misconceptions about gravitons
and black holes. Black holes are stationary solutions of Einstein's
equations. They have nothing to do with quantum theory, nor do
they pretend to explain how changes in the field are propagated.

John Anderson

Which leads to another question. Why are gravitons necessary at
all when the curvature of space is what explains gravity?

Why are photons necessary when Maxwell's equations describe EM?

Because, QM is necessary to explain some experiments that involve
the EM field. I don't need QM to explain all EM phenomena.

Similarly, I don't need QM to explain all gravitational phenomena.

John Anderson

John Anderson wrote:

Why are photons necessary when Maxwell's equations describe EM?

The Compton Effect and the Photoelectric Effect. Maxwell's theory cannot
account for them.


Bob Kolker

Robert J. Kolker wrote:

John Anderson wrote:

Why are photons necessary when Maxwell's equations describe EM?

The Compton Effect and the Photoelectric Effect. Maxwell's theory cannot
account for them.



You're quoting me out of context. The rest of my posting, that youdidn't
quote, said that you need photons in EM to describe quantum
effects.

John Anderson