How can the gravitational field have an energy? Isn't energy what
CREATES the gravitational field? Also, why is it that this energy does
not create any curvature effects while all other energies do? Doesn't
this violate the equivilence between all types of energies?

Where does the energy come from if free fall doesn't create any
energy? Do they mean the energy created when one accelerates up in a
gravitational field? If so, then why don't they just say so? And,
furthermore, this WOULD have an effect on its energy, at least from a
free-fall frame of reference, so why not include it in its
calculations?

This doesn't make any sense to me at all. And I'm not stupid or
anything. I don't see why they found it necessary to do these things.
Maybe either I need to be educated more, or their theory needs some
tweaking.

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)

Starblade Darksquall wrote:

How can the gravitational field have an energy? Isn't energy what
CREATES the gravitational field? Also, why is it that this energy does
not create any curvature effects while all other energies do? Doesn't
this violate the equivilence between all types of energies?

Where does the energy come from if free fall doesn't create any
energy? Do they mean the energy created when one accelerates up in a
gravitational field? If so, then why don't they just say so? And,
furthermore, this WOULD have an effect on its energy, at least from a
free-fall frame of reference, so why not include it in its
calculations?

This doesn't make any sense to me at all. And I'm not stupid or
anything. I don't see why they found it necessary to do these things.
Maybe either I need to be educated more, or their theory needs some
tweaking.


Gravitational Potential Energy
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/phys...ialEnergy.html

Jeans Length
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/phys...ansLength.html

Starblade Darksquall wrote:

How can the gravitational field have an energy?

The gravitational stress-energy (energy-momentum) tensor in General
Relativity is exactly zero. Any local gravitational field in freefall
becomes Minkowski space.

Isn't energy what
CREATES the gravitational field?

Weyl tensor. Idiot.

[snip]

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
(Do something naughty to physics)

Uncle Al wrote in message
...
Starblade Darksquall wrote:

How can the gravitational field have an energy?

The gravitational stress-energy (energy-momentum) tensor in General
Relativity is exactly zero. Any local gravitational field in freefall
becomes Minkowski space.

Not all free-fall frames are equivalent, as GPS clearly illustrates.
The un-equivalence principle rests upon gravitational gradient and
gravitational potential (space-time curvature). [Old Man]

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
(Do something naughty to physics)

Starblade Darksquall wrote in message
om...
How can the gravitational field have an energy? Isn't energy what
CREATES the gravitational field? Also, why is it that this energy does
not create any curvature effects while all other energies do? Doesn't
this violate the equivilence between all types of energies?

Whilst in free-fall, measure the gravitational gradient with two or more
test masses (test masses are to small to attract each other). If there
is a finite gradient, space-time is not flat, and you are not in free space.
In GTR, energy is not relative. Energy density gravitates absolutely.
[Old Man]

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)

"Old Man" wrote in message news:3f3c4617_2@newsfeed...
Uncle Al wrote in message
...
Starblade Darksquall wrote:

How can the gravitational field have an energy?

The gravitational stress-energy (energy-momentum) tensor in General
Relativity is exactly zero. Any local gravitational field in freefall
becomes Minkowski space.

Not all free-fall frames are equivalent, as GPS clearly illustrates.
The un-equivalence principle rests upon gravitational gradient and
gravitational potential (space-time curvature). [Old Man]

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
(Do something naughty to physics)

So what effect do these two things have on free fall?

Is there any 'free' energy in GR? That is, energy of gravitation?
Energy which depends on a thing's local passage through gravitational
gradients?

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)

Old Man wrote:

Uncle Al wrote in message
...
Starblade Darksquall wrote:

How can the gravitational field have an energy?

The gravitational stress-energy (energy-momentum) tensor in General
Relativity is exactly zero. Any local gravitational field in freefall
becomes Minkowski space.

Not all free-fall frames are equivalent, as GPS clearly illustrates.
The un-equivalence principle rests upon gravitational gradient and
gravitational potential (space-time curvature). [Old Man]

Read it again. "ANY **LOCAL** GRAVITAITONAL FIELD IN FREEFALL..."
The object of a language is to unambiguously convey information. That
is how I use English.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!

"Old Man" wrote in message
news:3f3d31f7_3@newsfeed...

Starblade Darksquall wrote in message
om...
"Old Man" wrote in message
news:3f3c4617_2@newsfeed...
Uncle Al wrote in message
...
Starblade Darksquall wrote:

How can the gravitational field have an energy?

The gravitational stress-energy (energy-momentum) tensor in
General
Relativity is exactly zero. Any local gravitational field
in freefall
becomes Minkowski space.

Not all free-fall frames are equivalent, as GPS clearly
illustrates.
The un-equivalence principle rests upon gravitational gradient
and
gravitational potential (space-time curvature). [Old Man]

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
(Do something naughty to physics)

So what effect do these two things have on free fall?

Gravitational red shift and gravitational length contraction. All
GPS satellites are in free-fall, but, in addition to relativistic
speed
corrections, the clock rate depends upon the radius of the orbit.
At finite free-fall radius, the clock rate is slower than that in
free
space. In a GM / r^2 gravitational field, the clock rates are
identical
for free-fall and stationary observers at the same radius. This
is
not a violation of the equivalence principle which is restricted
to
uniform gravitational fields. [Old Man]



Gravitational field strength ( gravitic pressure) increases as we
get closer to Earth due to an increased density of the CBMR.

--
Laurent

--------------------------------------------------------

The data from all sources, including our extensive experience
with satellites, can be most simply interpreted as indicating that
our Earth completely determines the motion of the surrounding space
for many kilometers out, sweeping it along with it into its 30km/s
uniform motion through the larger volume of space that is entrained
by our Sun and Solar system. Our galaxy, being a larger collection
of matter, entrains a larger body of space. Thus the motion of space
in any location in this Cosmos is determined by the distribution and
motion of both nearby and distant matter.

[...]

In the boundary regions where there is interaction between the
space-flows of two bodies, such as between the Earth and Sun, and at
distances from bodies where entrained and non-entrained space
interact, there will be anomalous atomic clock-slowing and
accelerational effects which are not predicted by the static
solutions of the field equations of General Relativity. These could
be detected by studying the motion and atomic-clock rate of a
satellite which passes through the Earth-Sun gravitational saddle
point. --- Henry Lindner


http://www.geocities.com/hlindner1/W...ce/Physics.htm

http://www.geocities.com/hlindner1/W...plications.htm


-----------------------------------

THE ETHER, QUANTUM MECHANICS & MODELS OF MATTER -- M. C. DUFFY

http://www.cet.sunderland.ac.uk/webe...ce/quantum.htm




Is there any 'free' energy in GR? That is, energy of
gravitation?
Energy which depends on a thing's local passage through
gravitational
gradients?

(...Starblade Riven Darksquall...)

Laurent wrote:



Gravitational field strength ( gravitic pressure) increases as we
get closer to Earth due to an increased density of the CBMR.


That's Ludicrous!

(Starblade Darksquall) writes:

How can the gravitational field have an energy? Isn't energy what
CREATES the gravitational field?

Congratulations! You have just deduced that in Relativity, gravitation
=MUST= be described by an _INTRINSICALLY NON-LINEAR THEORY_, in order to
avoid being self-contradictory.


Also, why is it that this energy does not create any curvature effects
while all other energies do?

Simple --- Gravitational energy =DOES= create curvature effects.
(What else do you think a black hole is? :-)

Furthermore, the fact that "gravitational energy ALSO gravitates, with
the SAME STRENGTH as any OTHER form of energy" has =ALREADY= been tested
AND verified by observation: Since the Moon and the Earth have different
gravitational binding energies, if gravitational energy did =NOT= gravitate
and respond to gravitation in conformance with the Equivalence Principle,
their differing accelerations toward the Sun would result in a characteristic
perturbation of the Earth / Moon system known as the "Nordtvedt Effect,"
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2001-4/node12.html.
Since the Nordtvedt Effect has =NOT= been observed in spite of high precision
observations of the Moon, it can been shown that gravitational binding energy
obeys the equivalence principle to better than one part in 1,000.


Doesn't this violate the equivilence between all types of energies?

No --- because your previous assumption that gravitation DIDN'T gravitate
was FALSE.


Where does the energy come from if free fall doesn't create any
energy? Do they mean the energy created when one accelerates up in a
gravitational field? If so, then why don't they just say so?

Because the Newtonian concept of "gravitational potential energy" is only
appropriate when both spacetime curvature AND relativistic effects can be
neglected to a first approximation --- i.e., in the Newtonian limit. Since
in General Relativity, energy is only one component of a TENSOR quantity,
in strong gravitational fields, the concept of an unambiguous and localizable
"gravitational energy" no longer makes sense.


-- Gordon D. Pusch

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