![]() |
| If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|||||||
| Tags: links, two, weak |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
| Ads |
|
#2
|
|||
|
|||
|
Craig Markwardt wrote in message
... Repeating your message five times is discourteous. (Aleksandr Timofeev) writes: We always should use the total of quantity of a planetary mass and its satellites at evaluation of the ratioes of the given type. Since your ratios are completely arbitrary, your choice of masses is irrelevant. Please make the answer to a problem: " Why the different CELESTIAL MECHANICAL THEORIES have different so-called ' SYSTEMS of Astrodynamic FUNDAMENTAL CONSTANTS and Parameters '? " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Implicit in the above question is the presupposition that there are different celestial mechanics theories with different "astrodynamic constants." What is the basis for this claim? The basis for for this claim is the existence of the several national celestial mechanics theories with different "astrodynamic constants and parameters." Which theories? Which constants? Please explain differences of quantities of masses of planets in the different celestial mechanics theories 1980 and 1995. (Aleksandr Timofeev) writes: Craig Markwardt wrote in message ... GR is a theory which explains the dynamics of masses under gravitation. Since " GR is a theory which explains the dynamics of masses under gravitation ", the " almighty " GR is obliged to give theoretical explanation for 'The empirical law connecting values of planetary masses in the Solar system'. Illogical conclusion. Ohm's law has nothing to say about the formative composition or masses of resistors, and yet it is a useful description of the behavior of current flow. GR has nothing to say about the compositions or masses of planets, but it is a useful description of the dynamical behaviors of masses under gravitation. In this case I shall offer you other parable from a history physicists: ================================================== ================ http://www.google.com/groups?selm=e1...g .google.com From: (Aleksandr Timofeev) Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity,sci.physics Subject: The detection of "photons" in Bell tests Date: 11 Apr 2002 05:53:29 -0700 ================================================== ================ Parable First told by V. B. Braginsky. ================================================== ================ http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/%...ns/Balmer.html Below I have made a quotations of Article by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson " Johann Jakob Balmer Born: 1 May 1825 in Lausen, Basel-Land, Switzerland Died: 12 March 1898 in Basel, Switzerland Balmer taught in Basel all his life. From 1859 until his death in 1898 Balmer was a school teacher of mathematics at a secondary school for girls in the city. From 1865 until 1890 he was also a university lecturer in mathematics at the University of Basel where his main field of interest was geometry. However, despite being a mathematics teacher and lecturer all his life, Balmer is best remembered for his work on spectral series and his formula, given in 1885, for the wavelengths of the spectral lines of the hydrogen atom. This was set out in one of only two papers which he wrote on spectra of the elements, the second being in 1897. The major contribution which Balmer made, however, depended much more on his mathematical skills than on his understanding of physics, for his produced a formula which gave the wavelengths of the observed lines produced by the hydrogen atom without giving any physical explanation. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Previous attempts had looked for formulas of quite different types and had failed to come up with anything which matched the experimental evidence. Putting m = 7 gave Balmer a predicted value for the next line and indeed a colleague at the University of Basel was able to tell Balmer that this line had been observed and the wavelength agreed with a high level of accuracy with the one Balmer's formula predicted. In his paper of 1885 Balmer suggested that giving n other small integer values would give the wavelengths of other series produced by the hydrogen atom. Indeed this prediction turned out to be correct and these series of lines were later observed. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++ The reason why the formula holds was not understood in Balmer's lifetime and had to wait until the theoretical work of Niels Bohr in 1913. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++ Balmer's formula led to more general formulas for the spectral lines of other atoms. Others who, basing their ideas on those of Balmer, were able to achieve such results included Rydberg, Kayser and Runge. " http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/%...ohr_Niels.html Below I have made a quotations of Article by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson Niels Henrik David Bohr "On 24 July 1912, Bohr left Rutherford's group in Manchester and returned to Copenhagen to continue to develop his new theory of the atom, completing the work in 1913. The same year he published three papers of fundamental importance on the theory of the atom. The first paper was on the hydrogen atom, the next two on the structure of atoms heavier than hydrogen. " V. B. Braginsky has made a following inference: "The reason why the Balmer's formula holds was not understood in Balmer's lifetime and had to wait until the theoretical work of Niels Bohr in 1913. Niels Bohr has won the Nobel prize, unfortunately Johann Balmer the Nobel prize has not won, though he had all legal grounds for this purpose." ================================================== ================ End of Parable First told by V. B. Braginsky. ================================================== ================ Furthermore, it is quite possible for one to find suggestive numerological relations between groups of quantities, whether or not the relation is real. In the case above, the number of combinations of ratios A/(B+C), (A+B)/C or (A+B)/(C+D) is 756. Therefore it is not surprising that of there could be a tens of ratios close to a whole number (within +/- 0.05) even for a purely random distribution of planetary masses. That you found only eight of them suggests that you could have found quite a few more, if you so chose. I notice your lack of response to my comment. Response to your comment a 1) Uncommon or Unparalleled CLASS linear combinations of triple nearest planetary system masses; 2) PHYSICAL SIMMETRY; 3) Fibonacci numbers ================================================== ================== I express a profound gratitude to Craig Markwardt for the indicating of inexactness in my data tables. ================================================== ================== Chiral symmetry of ratios When organised graphically, the ratios of linear combinations of the planetary masses considered, reveal a chain of gravitational correlations between triples of planets possessing chiral symmetry: 10 I-----------| I 13 | I==============I I | I ? 39 I | I |-----------------I 33 |----------------I 24 | I | |------------------I |-----------------I | | I ? | | I 5 | | I 8 | | I 3 | | I | | I====| | I====| | I====| | I====| | I | | I | | I | | I | | I | | I 10 9 I 8 7 I 6 5 I 4 3 I 2 1 I I | | I | | I | | I | | I I Mercury MarsI Venus EarthI Uran NepI Saturn JupiterI I I I I I 10+9 8+7 6+5 4+3 2+1 ln(mass) - - -------------------------------------------------------------- The following symbols here are used in this graphic: MSsa + MSju - 2 + 1; MSur + MSne - 4 + 3; MSve + MSea - 6 + 5; MSme + MSma - 8 + 7; MSju - 1; MSsa - 2; MSne - 3; MSur - 4; MSea - 5; MSve - 6; MSma - 7; MSme - 8; 5 Direct gravitational correlation - ====; 33 Reverse gravitational correlation - ---------- Note: Here it is necessary to understand exclusive importance of the numbers Fibonacci for gravitational regularities inside the Solar system in common case: If you look at direct gravitational connections than you will see the following numbers: 3, 5, 8, 13. For the third hypothetical quad there should be now following numbers accordingly: 21 and 34. [Snip for the comments in the following message.] |
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
|
Craig Markwardt wrote in message ...
[Snip for the comments in the following message.] Please make the answer to a problem: " Why the different CELESTIAL MECHANICAL THEORIES have different so-called ' SYSTEMS of Astrodynamic FUNDAMENTAL CONSTANTS and Parameters '? " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Implicit in the above question is the presupposition that there are different celestial mechanics theories with different "astrodynamic constants." What is the basis for this claim? There are some systems of astronomical constants. At usage of miscellaneous constants all of them should be coordinated among themselves and are coordinated with other data of a problem. The astronomical constants reflect spatial and time configurations of actual celestial bodies. The constants are defined on the basis of observations. Because of inexactness of measurings always there are indeterminacies in the retrieved values. There are also dependences between errors of constants. Some variants are mutual of co-ordinated values can approximately equally obey to the observational data. The miscellaneous systems of astronomical constants differ, as a rule, composition of initial observational data. The incoordination of accepted values of constants can introduce in new errors to result of investigations. Which theories? In a history of definition of astronomical constants there were some stable versions. Here some of them: - the Newcome's System, 1898 - IAU system, 1964 - IAU system, 1976 - DE102 system, 1977 - DE200 system, 1982 - IERS system, 1992 - DE403 system, 1995. Which constants? As an example of exact usage of system of astronomical constants it is possible to give a following situation. With the help of an DE200 ephemeris the rectangular coordinates of planets expressed in astronomical units are evaluated. Then the values of coordinates are translated in kilometers. Thus for an astronomical unit 149597870.66 kms are possesing the value, which one differs from value accepted in the IERS system. And it is correct, as just this value was used at making ephemerises in system DE200. And so on with other values of so called " astronomical constants " from " stable versions" . " In a history of definition of _astronomical constants_ there were numerous of systems of stable versions... " ================================================== =========== The gravitational astronomy or different celestial mechanics theories are an amazing example of guessing on numbers, i.e. numerology ;^) ================================================== =========== [Snip for the comments in the following message.] |
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
|
Craig Markwardt wrote in message
... [Snip, I did the comment in the previous message.] (Aleksandr Timofeev) writes: We always should use the total of quantity of a planetary mass and its satellites at evaluation of the ratioes of the given type. Since your ratios are completely arbitrary, your choice of masses is irrelevant. Since including values of masses of planets your different so-called ' SYSTEMS of Astrodynamic FUNDAMENTAL CONSTANTS and Parameters ' " are completely arbitrary " in different CELESTIAL MECHANICAL THEORIES, my " choice of 'Magic Ratios of UNPARALLELED CLASS linear combinations of triples nearest planetary system masses ' is _always_ relevant." ================================================== =================== Absolutely all classic conservation laws are obliged to own existence by PHYSICAL SYMMETRY of a material WORLD. ================================================== =================== I searched for the laws of GRAVITATIONAL PHYSICAL SYMMETRY in the Solar System and I have found this one that I searched. Please read the classical authors: 1. Richard Feynman "THE CHARACTER OF PHISICAL LAW"; A series of lectures recorded by the BBC at Cornell University USA; Cox and Wynman LTD, London, 1965 "The fundamental physical laws have properties tightly connected with a symmetry" Richard Feynman. 2. For the first time in the world the French mathematician and physicist Henry Poincare has paid attention to a symmetry of the physical laws: Henry Poinca 1. La Science et l'hypothhse (1903; Science and Hypothesis), 2. La Valeur de la science (1905; The Value of Science), 3. Science et mithode (1908; Science and Method), Paris, Flammarion, 13 mille 1914, 14 mille 1918 These three writings can be found in: The Foundations of Science, containing Science and Hypothesis, The Value of Science, and Science and Method, trans. by George Bruce Halsted, Lancaster(Pa), Science press, cop. 1946 4. Dernihres pensies (1913); This writing can be found in: Mathematics and Science: Last Essays, trans. by John W. Bolduc, New York, Dover, cop. 1963 I express a profound gratitude to Craig Markwardt for the indicating of inexactness in my data tables. Planetary system masses " The more reliable values for Planetary system masses " a http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/astro_constants.html The ratio of the Sun mass to the total of a planetary mass and her satellites (IERS 1992, DE403 1995, DE-405. ) Table 1. | Mass Ratio Exact Ratio | considered value uncertainty | Note 1. of the estimate | ratio ± (Note 2.) | | Sun / (Jupiter system) = 1047.3486 0.0008 | Sun / (Saturn system) = 3497.898 0.018 | Sun / (Neptune system) = 19412.24 0.04 | Sun / (Uranus system) = 22902.98 0.03 | Sun / (Earth system) = 328900.56 0.02 | Sun / Venus = 408523.71 0.06 | Sun / (Mars system) = 3098708. 9. | Sun / Mercury = 6023600. 250. Let Mass value for Earth system = 1 , then: Table 2. | Planet Symbol used Mass value | | system for each | | planet system Earth system=1 | | | | Jupiter system MSju or 1 314.03162 | | Saturn system MSsa or 2 94.02806 | | Neptune system MSne or 3 16.94295 | | Uranus system MSur or 4 14.36060 | | Earth system MSea or 5 1.00000 | | Venus MSve or 6 0.80510 | | Mars system MSma or 7 0.10614 | | Mercury MSme or 8 0.05460 | Tables Notes. Note 1. http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/astro_constants.html ( DE405 ) Yoder, C.F. 1995. in Global Earth Physics, A Handbook of Physical Constants, AGU Reference Shelf 1, American Geophysical Union, Tables 6,7,10. Note 2. http://horizons.jpl.nasa.gov/phys_props_planets.html Standish, E.M. (1995) in Highlights of Astronomy (I. Appenzeller, ed.), Table 1, Kluwer Academic Publishers, Dordrecht. Note 3. http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/eph_info.html " Ratio uncertainty " is interior precision for the JPL's DE405 theory. Magic Ratios of UNPARALLELED CLASS linear combinations of triples nearest planetary system masses Table 3. | Ratio Exact Ratio Rounded | considered value uncertainty ratio | of the estimate | ratio for DE405 | |(MSju + MSsa) / (MSur + MSne) = 13.03557 4.55D-05 13 | MSju / (MSur + MSne) = 10.03182 2.49D-05 10 | MSsa / (MSur + MSne) = 3.00375 2.06D-05 3 |(MSju + MSsa) / MSne = 24.08434 9.23D-05 24 | MSur / (MSea + MSve) = 7.95559 1.12D-05 8 |(MSne + MSur) / MSve = 38.88179 7.24D-05 39 |(MSea + MSve) / MSme = 33.059 1.38D-03 33 | MSve / (MSma + MSme) = 5.00858 8.10D-05 5 Chiral symmetry of ratios When organised graphically, the ratios of linear combinations of the planetary masses considered, reveal a chain of gravitational correlations between triples of planets possessing chiral symmetry: Graph 1. 10 I-----------| I 13 | I==============I I | I ? 39 I | I |-----------------I 33 |----------------I 24 | I | |------------------I |-----------------I | | I ? | | I 5 | | I 8 | | I 3 | | I | | I====| | I====| | I====| | I====| | I | | I | | I | | I | | I | | I 10 9 I 8 7 I 6 5 I 4 3 I 2 1 I I | | I | | I | | I | | I I Mercury MarsI Venus EarthI Uran NepI Saturn JupiterI I I I I I 10+9 8+7 6+5 4+3 2+1 ln(mass) - - -------------------------------------------------------------- The following symbols here are used in this graphic: MSsa + MSju - 2 + 1; MSur + MSne - 4 + 3; MSve + MSea - 6 + 5; MSme + MSma - 8 + 7; MSju - 1; MSsa - 2; MSne - 3; MSur - 4; MSea - 5; MSve - 6; MSma - 7; MSme - 8; 5 Direct gravitational correlation - ====; 33 Reverse gravitational correlation - ---------- Note: Here it is necessary to understand exclusive importance of the numbers Fibonacci for gravitational regularities inside the Solar system in common case: If you look at direct gravitational connections than you will see the following numbers: 3, 5, 8, 13. For the third hypothetical quad there should be now following numbers accordingly: 21 and 34. Please make the answer to a problem: " Why the different CELESTIAL MECHANICAL THEORIES have different so-called ' SYSTEMS of Astrodynamic FUNDAMENTAL CONSTANTS and Parameters '? " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Implicit in the above question is the presupposition that there are different celestial mechanics theories with different "astrodynamic constants." What is the basis for this claim? Which theories? Which constants? It is unstable set of unstable "astrodynamic constants and parameters." In a history of definition of astronomical constants there were some stable versions. Here some of them: - the Newcome's System, 1898 - IAU system, 1964 - IAU system, 1976 - DE102 system, 1977 - DE200 system, 1982 - IERS system, 1992 - DE403 system, 1995. And so on... [Snip for the comments in the following message.] Sincerely Aleksandr Timofeev |
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
|
(Aleksandr Timofeev) writes: Craig Markwardt wrote in message ... Repeating your message five times is discourteous. (Aleksandr Timofeev) writes: We always should use the total of quantity of a planetary mass and its satellites at evaluation of the ratioes of the given type. Since your ratios are completely arbitrary, your choice of masses is irrelevant. [ from another scattered message ] Since including values of masses of planets your different so-called ' SYSTEMS of Astrodynamic FUNDAMENTAL CONSTANTS and Parameters ' " are completely arbitrary " in different CELESTIAL MECHANICAL THEORIES, my " choice of 'Magic Ratios of UNPARALLELED CLASS linear combinations of triples nearest planetary system masses ' is _always_ relevant." You make the erroneous presupposition that the masses in celestial mechanics solutions are arbitrary. They are not. A different set of masses would not provide a fit to the data, within the confidence limits, and so therefore your comment is irrelevant. ================================================== =================== Absolutely all classic conservation laws are obliged to own existence by PHYSICAL SYMMETRY of a material WORLD. ================================================== =================== Physical laws are human models of how nature behaves. Nature is not obliged to obey any human preconception. Please make the answer to a problem: " Why the different CELESTIAL MECHANICAL THEORIES have different so-called ' SYSTEMS of Astrodynamic FUNDAMENTAL CONSTANTS and Parameters '? " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Implicit in the above question is the presupposition that there are different celestial mechanics theories with different "astrodynamic constants." What is the basis for this claim? The basis for for this claim is the existence of the several national celestial mechanics theories with different "astrodynamic constants and parameters." You make the erroneous presupposition that the solutions that you mention [ in various other scattered messages ] are different theories of celestial mechanics, which they are not. They are different *solutions* to the same theory of gravitation, with different sets of observations. [ refs. 1-3 ] In general, as the amount of independent observational data increases, the confidence limits on the parameters -- such as the planetary masses -- will become tighter. [ Timofeev: ] Since " GR is a theory which explains the dynamics of masses under gravitation ", the " almighty " GR is obliged to give theoretical explanation for 'The empirical law connecting values of planetary masses in the Solar system'. Illogical conclusion. Ohm's law has nothing to say about the formative composition or masses of resistors, and yet it is a useful description of the behavior of current flow. GR has nothing to say about the compositions or masses of planets, but it is a useful description of the dynamical behaviors of masses under gravitation. In this case I shall offer you other parable from a history physicists: The referenced parable is irrelevant, because neither Balmer's nor Bohr's theories of the atom explain the compositions, masses or charges of the atomic constituents. Furthermore, it is quite possible for one to find suggestive numerological relations between groups of quantities, whether or not the relation is real. In the case above, the number of combinations of ratios A/(B+C), (A+B)/C or (A+B)/(C+D) is 756. Therefore it is not surprising that of there could be a tens of ratios close to a whole number (within +/- 0.05) even for a purely random distribution of planetary masses. That you found only eight of them suggests that you could have found quite a few more, if you so chose. I notice your lack of response to my comment. Response to your comment a 1) Uncommon or Unparalleled CLASS linear combinations of triple nearest planetary system masses; 2) PHYSICAL SIMMETRY; 3) Fibonacci numbers These responses are irrelevant to my comment. It is possible to choose *many* different combinations of ratios by random which lie close to a whole number. Since you deliberately chose which ratios appear in your "theory," there is nothing self evident or "unparalleled" about them. The equivalence of inert mass and gravitational mass is physically error guess on the basis of local measurings. It is an assumption which has been tested extensively. See for example Nordtvedt, *The Century of Space Science*, 2001, Kluwer, Netherlands, p. 335-352. Tests of gravity do not require the assumption of the equivalence principle. However, tests to date have been consistent with the equivalence principle. Extra-solar tests of GR rely on highly precise timing tests. What other physical quantities you can precision measure in these " Extra-solar tests of GR " except for " highly precise timing tests "? Irrelevant question. Highly precise timing tests are not quantities. In pulsar timing, the orbit determination is sufficiently accurate to provide tests of gravitational models *without* assuming GR is correct. You have not presented a basis for your declaration that the tests are "extremely speculative." You have not presented a quantitative or technical argument refuting a set of results which is indeed highly quantitative, careful and technical (for example, measurement of Shapiro delay within a binary pulsar wystem to within 35 ns; or of orbital decay predicted by gravitational radiation; see references). Therefore I reject your claim. I disagree with you, these so-called "measurings" have extremely speculative character, since even in the Solar System we have methodological problems in desired precision of gravitational measurings. This claim is unsubstantiated. As shown by decades of measurement within the solar system, high precisions can be achieved. [ references provided numerous times. ] Since your "empirical law" apparently has nothing to say about the dynamics of planets, and the propagation of radiation in the solar system, it is irrelevant to the discussion. [ I say apparently, because you have provided no evidence. ] CM References 1. Standish, E.M.: 1990, "The Observational Basis for JPL's DE200, the planetary ephemeris of the Astronomical Almanac", Astron. Astrophys., vol. 233, pp. 252-271. 2. Standish, E.M. 1995, "JPL Planetary and Lunary Ephemerides DE403/LE403" Interoffice Memorandum, IOM 314.10-127 http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/iau-comm4/de403iom/de403iom.ps 2. Standish, E.M. 1998, "JPL Planetary and Lunary Ephemerides DE405/LE405" Interoffice Memorandum, IOM 312.F - 98 - 048 http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/iau-comm4/de405iom/de405iom.ps |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| The Two Weak Links . | ant@dnttm.ru | Physics - General Discussion | 0 | July 25th 03 09:20 AM |
| The Two Weak Links . | Charles Cagle | Physics - General Discussion | 3 | July 7th 03 07:52 AM |
| The Two Weak Links . | Aleksandr Timofeev | The Theory of Relativity | 0 | July 3rd 03 09:21 AM |
| The Two Weak Links . | Aleksandr Timofeev | Physics - General Discussion | 0 | July 2nd 03 10:06 AM |
| The Two Weak Links . | Aleksandr Timofeev | The Theory of Relativity | 0 | July 2nd 03 10:06 AM |