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| Tags: asymptotical, bars, error, incompleteness, its, prove |
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#21
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On May 13, 12:31*am, Albertito wrote:
[snip] Simple question: What do you hope to accomplish by writing things that are purposefully experimentally indistinguishable from SR when you have no underlying theory to derive them from? |
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#22
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On May 13, 3:31*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 12, 11:21 pm, PD wrote: On May 12, 6:56 am, Albertito wrote: On May 11, 10:07 pm, PD wrote: On May 9, 6:44 am, Albertito wrote: Let us consider the simple case of addition of velocities along a straight line. The incompleteness of SR resides in the fact that a speed v can't currently be experimentally distinguished from its rapidity r = arctanh(v/c), for values of that beta = v/c *below the third-order term approximation. The power series expansion of r = arctanh(v/c) is * * * * * r = v/c + v*3/3c^3+ v^5/5c^5 + v^7/7c^7 + .... Provide references of any experimental test of SR, showing that the rapidity r can be distinguished from its beta v/c, beyond its second-order approximation. Prove at least that the third-order term v*3/3c^3 lives outside the error bars. Since, we can't *still perform such accurate experimental tests, we must conclude the addition of velocities still remains within the euclidean sum of vectors * * * * * * * *w = u + v. That sum can't still be experimentally distinguished from the sum of rapidities * * * * * * *arctanh(w/c) = arctanh(u/c) + arctanh(v/c). In addition, we must also conclude that the relativistic Doppler * * * * * * * *f' = Exp(-r) f , * * * * * * * *where r = arctanh(v/c), can't still be experimentally distinguished from this one * * * * * * * *f' = Exp(-v/c) f There is actually an abundance of these tests. I'll mention one. Muon beamlines are created by allowing charged pions to decay in flight. The pions have momenta such that their speed is close to that of light. Since it is an exoenergetic decay, the muon has extra kinetic energy from the decay. Since the pion's decay mechanism doesn't give a whit whether the pion is in flight when it decays (and in fact, the principle of relativity says the physics of the pion decay has to be the same for pions at rest vs. pions in free flight), we can guess what that kinetic energy profile is for the moving pions by using the distribution for decaying pions at rest. Or, put another way, we can take the velocity distribution of muons in the pion rest frame and boost them to the frame where the pions are moving close to the speed of light. Using rapidities to perform that boost results in a velocity distribution that agrees with direct measurement. The Galilean transformations, on the other hand, predict that the muon velocity would have a peak in the forward direction that exceeds c. Muon time of flight can be measured directly via a triplet of scintillator paddles, and in fact this is routinely done in muon beamlines. The muon speed distribution never exceeds c. PD Interpretation under my model and that provided by SR can't still be experimentally distinguished. Consider this sum of betas, * * v/c = v_p/c + v_mu'/c , * * with * * v_p, pion speed at the moment of its decay wrt muon * * * * * * detector. * * v_mu', *the relative speed of a muon with respect * * * * * * * * *to the point where the pion has decayed Consider this sum of rapidities, *arctanh(w/c) = *arctanh(v_p/c) *+ *arctanh(v_mu'/c) In both sums, neither v_p nor v_m_u' exceed c. SR assumes the final speed of the muon in the detector must be * * * * w = c tanh(arctanh(v_p/c) *+ *arctanh(v_mu'/c)), * * * * but it needs also the assumption there is time dilation * * * * of the muon lifetime, as t = t_0 / sqrt(1 - w^2/c^2), * * * * in order to fit the prediction to the observation. In my model, the final speed of the muon in the detector is * * * * * * *v *= v_p + v_mu', * * * * * * without the assumption of any time dilation at all. If it still is not clear to you, I can repeat, * * * * * * *v/c =(v_p + v_mu')/c And, if you do the math, you find out the left-hand-side of this formula should be greater than 1, given the amount of kinetic energy released in pions decaying to muons. Go ahead, plug in the numbers. What's the problem with finding out the left-hand-side of this formula is greater than 1? Well, for one thing, it doesn't happen. As I mentioned to you, the time of flight of muons is *measured*. We know what the speed is. It's not greater than 1. That's only a problem if you use the relativistic kinetic energy. No, sir. It's a problem with measurement. Of course, v/c = (v_p + v_mu')/c *is greater than 1, because v_p/c is very close to 1, and v_mu'/c can be greater than (1 - v_p/c). |
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#23
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On May 13, 10:04 am, PD wrote:
On May 13, 3:31 am, Albertito wrote: On May 12, 11:21 pm, PD wrote: On May 12, 6:56 am, Albertito wrote: On May 11, 10:07 pm, PD wrote: On May 9, 6:44 am, Albertito wrote: Let us consider the simple case of addition of velocities along a straight line. The incompleteness of SR resides in the fact that a speed v can't currently be experimentally distinguished from its rapidity r = arctanh(v/c), for values of that beta = v/c below the third-order term approximation. The power series expansion of r = arctanh(v/c) is r = v/c + v*3/3c^3+ v^5/5c^5 + v^7/7c^7 + ... Provide references of any experimental test of SR, showing that the rapidity r can be distinguished from its beta v/c, beyond its second-order approximation. Prove at least that the third-order term v*3/3c^3 lives outside the error bars. Since, we can't still perform such accurate experimental tests, we must conclude the addition of velocities still remains within the euclidean sum of vectors w = u + v. That sum can't still be experimentally distinguished from the sum of rapidities arctanh(w/c) = arctanh(u/c) + arctanh(v/c). In addition, we must also conclude that the relativistic Doppler f' = Exp(-r) f , where r = arctanh(v/c), can't still be experimentally distinguished from this one f' = Exp(-v/c) f There is actually an abundance of these tests. I'll mention one. Muon beamlines are created by allowing charged pions to decay in flight. The pions have momenta such that their speed is close to that of light. Since it is an exoenergetic decay, the muon has extra kinetic energy from the decay. Since the pion's decay mechanism doesn't give a whit whether the pion is in flight when it decays (and in fact, the principle of relativity says the physics of the pion decay has to be the same for pions at rest vs. pions in free flight), we can guess what that kinetic energy profile is for the moving pions by using the distribution for decaying pions at rest. Or, put another way, we can take the velocity distribution of muons in the pion rest frame and boost them to the frame where the pions are moving close to the speed of light. Using rapidities to perform that boost results in a velocity distribution that agrees with direct measurement. The Galilean transformations, on the other hand, predict that the muon velocity would have a peak in the forward direction that exceeds c. Muon time of flight can be measured directly via a triplet of scintillator paddles, and in fact this is routinely done in muon beamlines. The muon speed distribution never exceeds c. PD Interpretation under my model and that provided by SR can't still be experimentally distinguished. Consider this sum of betas, v/c = v_p/c + v_mu'/c , with v_p, pion speed at the moment of its decay wrt muon detector. v_mu', the relative speed of a muon with respect to the point where the pion has decayed Consider this sum of rapidities, arctanh(w/c) = arctanh(v_p/c) + arctanh(v_mu'/c) In both sums, neither v_p nor v_m_u' exceed c. SR assumes the final speed of the muon in the detector must be w = c tanh(arctanh(v_p/c) + arctanh(v_mu'/c)), but it needs also the assumption there is time dilation of the muon lifetime, as t = t_0 / sqrt(1 - w^2/c^2), in order to fit the prediction to the observation. In my model, the final speed of the muon in the detector is v = v_p + v_mu', without the assumption of any time dilation at all. If it still is not clear to you, I can repeat, v/c =(v_p + v_mu')/c And, if you do the math, you find out the left-hand-side of this formula should be greater than 1, given the amount of kinetic energy released in pions decaying to muons. Go ahead, plug in the numbers. What's the problem with finding out the left-hand-side of this formula is greater than 1? Well, for one thing, it doesn't happen. As I mentioned to you, the time of flight of muons is *measured*. We know what the speed is. It's not greater than 1. That's only a problem if you use the relativistic kinetic energy. No, sir. It's a problem with measurement. Of course, v/c = (v_p + v_mu')/c is greater than 1, because v_p/c is very close to 1, and v_mu'/c can be greater than (1 - v_p/c). You can't keep track of single muons to measure their 'time of flight'. All you can do is to perform statistics and extrapolate to single muons. You can't say a muon called A was emitted by a pion called P at time t=0, and then A was detected at distance R at time t'. The extrapolation for a single muon you perfom is pure nonsense. That's the reason why we find out in particle physics there are three odd generations of charged leptons, and nobody can guess why there are actually those three generations and why they exhibit the rest masses they exhibit. SR is unable to account for the mass of muons and tau leptons with respect to the mass of electrons. Should we call that impossibility a fraud?. If you avoid SR, and try to explain why muon and tau lepton have the rest masses they have wrt that of an electron, you will be able to find out those three generations of charged leptons, are just exact ratios derived from multiples of c. |
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#24
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On May 13, 1:53*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 13, 10:04 am, PD wrote: On May 13, 3:31 am, Albertito wrote: On May 12, 11:21 pm, PD wrote: On May 12, 6:56 am, Albertito wrote: On May 11, 10:07 pm, PD wrote: On May 9, 6:44 am, Albertito wrote: Let us consider the simple case of addition of velocities along a straight line. The incompleteness of SR resides in the fact that a speed v can't currently be experimentally distinguished from its rapidity r = arctanh(v/c), for values of that beta = v/c *below the third-order term approximation. The power series expansion of r = arctanh(v/c) is * * * * * r = v/c + v*3/3c^3+ v^5/5c^5 + v^7/7c^7 + ... Provide references of any experimental test of SR, showing that the rapidity r can be distinguished from its beta v/c, beyond its second-order approximation. Prove at least that the third-order term v*3/3c^3 lives outside the error bars. Since, we can't *still perform such accurate experimental tests, we must conclude the addition of velocities still remains within the euclidean sum of vectors * * * * * * * *w = u + v. That sum can't still be experimentally distinguished from the sum of rapidities * * * * * * *arctanh(w/c) = arctanh(u/c) + arctanh(v/c). In addition, we must also conclude that the relativistic Doppler * * * * * * * *f' = Exp(-r) f , * * * * * * * *where r = arctanh(v/c), can't still be experimentally distinguished from this one * * * * * * * *f' = Exp(-v/c) f There is actually an abundance of these tests. I'll mention one. Muon beamlines are created by allowing charged pions to decay in flight. The pions have momenta such that their speed is close to that of light. Since it is an exoenergetic decay, the muon has extra kinetic energy from the decay. Since the pion's decay mechanism doesn't give a whit whether the pion is in flight when it decays (and in fact, the principle of relativity says the physics of the pion decay has to be the same for pions at rest vs. pions in free flight), we can guess what that kinetic energy profile is for the moving pions by using the distribution for decaying pions at rest. Or, put another way, we can take the velocity distribution of muons in the pion rest frame and boost them to the frame where the pions are moving close to the speed of light. Using rapidities to perform that boost results in a velocity distribution that agrees with direct measurement. The Galilean transformations, on the other hand, predict that the muon velocity would have a peak in the forward direction that exceeds c. Muon time of flight can be measured directly via a triplet of scintillator paddles, and in fact this is routinely done in muon beamlines. The muon speed distribution never exceeds c. PD Interpretation under my model and that provided by SR can't still be experimentally distinguished. Consider this sum of betas, * * v/c = v_p/c + v_mu'/c , * * with * * v_p, pion speed at the moment of its decay wrt muon * * * * * * detector. * * v_mu', *the relative speed of a muon with respect * * * * * * * * *to the point where the pion has decayed Consider this sum of rapidities, *arctanh(w/c) = *arctanh(v_p/c) *+ *arctanh(v_mu'/c) In both sums, neither v_p nor v_m_u' exceed c. SR assumes the final speed of the muon in the detector must be * * * * w = c tanh(arctanh(v_p/c) *+ *arctanh(v_mu'/c)), * * * * but it needs also the assumption there is time dilation * * * * of the muon lifetime, as t = t_0 / sqrt(1 - w^2/c^2), * * * * in order to fit the prediction to the observation. In my model, the final speed of the muon in the detector is * * * * * * *v *= v_p + v_mu', * * * * * * without the assumption of any time dilation at all. If it still is not clear to you, I can repeat, * * * * * * *v/c =(v_p + v_mu')/c And, if you do the math, you find out the left-hand-side of this formula should be greater than 1, given the amount of kinetic energy released in pions decaying to muons. Go ahead, plug in the numbers. What's the problem with finding out the left-hand-side of this formula is greater than 1? Well, for one thing, it doesn't happen. As I mentioned to you, the time of flight of muons is *measured*. We know what the speed is. It's not greater than 1. That's only a problem if you use the relativistic kinetic energy. No, sir. It's a problem with measurement. Of course, v/c = (v_p + v_mu')/c *is greater than 1, because v_p/c is very close to 1, and v_mu'/c can be greater than (1 - v_p/c). You can't keep track of single muons to measure their 'time of flight'. All you can do is to perform statistics and extrapolate to single muons. You can't say a muon called A was emitted by a pion called P at time t=0, and then A was detected at distance R at time t'. The extrapolation for a single muon you perfom is pure nonsense. That's the reason why we find out in particle physics there are three odd generations of charged leptons, and nobody can guess why there are actually those three generations and why they exhibit the rest masses they exhibit. SR is unable to account for the mass of muons and tau leptons with respect to the mass of electrons. Should we call that impossibility a fraud?. If you avoid SR, and try to explain why muon and tau lepton have the rest masses they have wrt that of an electron, you will be able to find out *those three generations of charged leptons, are just exact ratios derived from multiples of c. I'd like to take a moment to point out that you are arguing about particle physics with an actual published particle physicist. |
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#25
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On May 13, 10:03 am, Eric Gisse wrote:
On May 13, 12:31 am, Albertito wrote: [snip] Simple question: What do you hope to accomplish by writing things that are purposefully experimentally indistinguishable from SR when you have no underlying theory to derive them from? Is the second postulate of SR a first principle? Yes? Is it a first principle to claim the speed of light does not depend on the speed of the source, but then we will have to deal with time dilations and length contractions, in order to be able explain phenomena? Well, if it is so that c' = c, is a first principle from which SR can be derived, then c' = c Exp(-v/c^2) is also a first principle from which my model can be derived, and time dilations and length contractions will not be required. |
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#26
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On May 13, 4:53*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 13, 10:04 am, PD wrote: On May 13, 3:31 am, Albertito wrote: On May 12, 11:21 pm, PD wrote: On May 12, 6:56 am, Albertito wrote: On May 11, 10:07 pm, PD wrote: On May 9, 6:44 am, Albertito wrote: Let us consider the simple case of addition of velocities along a straight line. The incompleteness of SR resides in the fact that a speed v can't currently be experimentally distinguished from its rapidity r = arctanh(v/c), for values of that beta = v/c *below the third-order term approximation. The power series expansion of r = arctanh(v/c) is * * * * * r = v/c + v*3/3c^3+ v^5/5c^5 + v^7/7c^7 + ... Provide references of any experimental test of SR, showing that the rapidity r can be distinguished from its beta v/c, beyond its second-order approximation. Prove at least that the third-order term v*3/3c^3 lives outside the error bars. Since, we can't *still perform such accurate experimental tests, we must conclude the addition of velocities still remains within the euclidean sum of vectors * * * * * * * *w = u + v. That sum can't still be experimentally distinguished from the sum of rapidities * * * * * * *arctanh(w/c) = arctanh(u/c) + arctanh(v/c). In addition, we must also conclude that the relativistic Doppler * * * * * * * *f' = Exp(-r) f , * * * * * * * *where r = arctanh(v/c), can't still be experimentally distinguished from this one * * * * * * * *f' = Exp(-v/c) f There is actually an abundance of these tests. I'll mention one. Muon beamlines are created by allowing charged pions to decay in flight. The pions have momenta such that their speed is close to that of light. Since it is an exoenergetic decay, the muon has extra kinetic energy from the decay. Since the pion's decay mechanism doesn't give a whit whether the pion is in flight when it decays (and in fact, the principle of relativity says the physics of the pion decay has to be the same for pions at rest vs. pions in free flight), we can guess what that kinetic energy profile is for the moving pions by using the distribution for decaying pions at rest. Or, put another way, we can take the velocity distribution of muons in the pion rest frame and boost them to the frame where the pions are moving close to the speed of light. Using rapidities to perform that boost results in a velocity distribution that agrees with direct measurement. The Galilean transformations, on the other hand, predict that the muon velocity would have a peak in the forward direction that exceeds c. Muon time of flight can be measured directly via a triplet of scintillator paddles, and in fact this is routinely done in muon beamlines. The muon speed distribution never exceeds c. PD Interpretation under my model and that provided by SR can't still be experimentally distinguished. Consider this sum of betas, * * v/c = v_p/c + v_mu'/c , * * with * * v_p, pion speed at the moment of its decay wrt muon * * * * * * detector. * * v_mu', *the relative speed of a muon with respect * * * * * * * * *to the point where the pion has decayed Consider this sum of rapidities, *arctanh(w/c) = *arctanh(v_p/c) *+ *arctanh(v_mu'/c) In both sums, neither v_p nor v_m_u' exceed c. SR assumes the final speed of the muon in the detector must be * * * * w = c tanh(arctanh(v_p/c) *+ *arctanh(v_mu'/c)), * * * * but it needs also the assumption there is time dilation * * * * of the muon lifetime, as t = t_0 / sqrt(1 - w^2/c^2), * * * * in order to fit the prediction to the observation. In my model, the final speed of the muon in the detector is * * * * * * *v *= v_p + v_mu', * * * * * * without the assumption of any time dilation at all. If it still is not clear to you, I can repeat, * * * * * * *v/c =(v_p + v_mu')/c And, if you do the math, you find out the left-hand-side of this formula should be greater than 1, given the amount of kinetic energy released in pions decaying to muons. Go ahead, plug in the numbers. What's the problem with finding out the left-hand-side of this formula is greater than 1? Well, for one thing, it doesn't happen. As I mentioned to you, the time of flight of muons is *measured*. We know what the speed is. It's not greater than 1. That's only a problem if you use the relativistic kinetic energy. No, sir. It's a problem with measurement. Of course, v/c = (v_p + v_mu')/c *is greater than 1, because v_p/c is very close to 1, and v_mu'/c can be greater than (1 - v_p/c). You can't keep track of single muons to measure their 'time of flight'. All you can do is to perform statistics and extrapolate to single muons. You can't say a muon called A was emitted by a pion called P at time t=0, and then A was detected at distance R at time t'. Of course you can. You didn't read what I wrote. You time a muon in flight the same way you could a car on the highway: you time its crossings on successive, spaced gates. (Note you don't have to follow the car all the way from the garage to do so.) You make a scintillator paddle triplet, with each paddle separated by some appreciable difference (say, 20m), and then the signals from each of the scintillators to an o'scope or a TDC by an equal length cable. 20 m would be about 60 ns if the speed were as high as c, trivial to measure by either of the devices mentioned. The presence of the MIP signal in all three paddles assures that you are seeing the passage of the muon. You measure the distance, and you measure the time it takes the muon to cover that distance. You have a direct measurement of the velocity. It does not exceed c. *Measured*. It might do you good to go into the laboratory to see for yourself, rather than just jacking around with piddly little ideas. PD |
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#27
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On May 13, 2:04*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 13, 10:03 am, Eric Gisse wrote: On May 13, 12:31 am, Albertito wrote: [snip] Simple question: What do you hope to accomplish by writing things that are purposefully experimentally indistinguishable from SR when you have no underlying theory to derive them from? Is the second postulate of SR a first principle? Yes... Yes? Is it a first principle to claim the speed of light does not depend on the speed of the source, Yes... but then we will have to deal with time dilations and length contractions, in order to be able explain phenomena? No. These are /predictions/, not first principles. You might want to actually study a little science first. Well, if it is so that c' = c, *is a first principle from which SR can be derived, then c' = c Exp(-v/c^2) is also a first principle from which my model can be derived, and time dilations and length contractions will not be required. Except there is zero evidence for your model, and you haven't actually derived anything meaningful yet. You write down equations you think your model has, but you don't ever show where they come from. In fact, the equations you write are always arbitrary and only picked because they match some SR equation to a few orders in a power series expansion. Why should anyone care what you have to say at all when that is all you ever do? |
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#28
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On May 13, 11:24 am, PD wrote:
[snipped] Of course you can. You didn't read what I wrote. You time a muon in flight the same way you could a car on the highway: you time its crossings on successive, spaced gates. (Note you don't have to follow the car all the way from the garage to do so.) You make a scintillator paddle triplet, with each paddle separated by some appreciable difference (say, 20m), and then the signals from each of the scintillators to an o'scope or a TDC by an equal length cable. 20 m would be about 60 ns if the speed were as high as c, trivial to measure by either of the devices mentioned. The presence of the MIP signal in all three paddles assures that you are seeing the passage of the muon. You measure the distance, and you measure the time it takes the muon to cover that distance. You have a direct measurement of the velocity. It does not exceed c. *Measured*. It might do you good to go into the laboratory to see for yourself, rather than just jacking around with piddly little ideas. PD That only proves those experiments are biased by relativistic formulas. Time dilation is not an observable by definition, it is just an interpretation to explain an observable. You can't label single muons to keep track of them, the same way you can't label single electrons. Perform a double-slit experiment to keep track of a single muon. Can you clarify the path a muon can follow in that double-slit experiment? If you can't clarify a muon path why are so sure a muon has travelled a distance R in time t'? Didn't you know that intermediate measurements alter the experimental results. |
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#29
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On May 13, 11:48 am, Eric Gisse wrote:
On May 13, 2:04 am, Albertito wrote: On May 13, 10:03 am, Eric Gisse wrote: On May 13, 12:31 am, Albertito wrote: [snip] Simple question: What do you hope to accomplish by writing things that are purposefully experimentally indistinguishable from SR when you have no underlying theory to derive them from? Is the second postulate of SR a first principle? Yes... Yes? Is it a first principle to claim the speed of light does not depend on the speed of the source, Yes... but then we will have to deal with time dilations and length contractions, in order to be able explain phenomena? No. These are /predictions/, not first principles. You might want to actually study a little science first. Well, if it is so that c' = c, is a first principle from which SR can be derived, then c' = c Exp(-v/c^2) is also a first principle from which my model can be derived, and time dilations and length contractions will not be required. Except there is zero evidence for your model, and you haven't actually derived anything meaningful yet. You write down equations you think your model has, but you don't ever show where they come from. In fact, the equations you write are always arbitrary and only picked because they match some SR equation to a few orders in a power series expansion. Why should anyone care what you have to say at all when that is all you ever do? Sorry, I meant c'= c Exp(-v/c), hehe :-) BTW, just one question: If I can derive the prediction for the ratios of charged lepton masses (issue that noboby still can resolve), will you become a renegade of SR, and become a faithful supporter of my model? |
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#30
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On May 13, 3:11*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 13, 11:48 am, Eric Gisse wrote: On May 13, 2:04 am, Albertito wrote: On May 13, 10:03 am, Eric Gisse wrote: On May 13, 12:31 am, Albertito wrote: [snip] Simple question: What do you hope to accomplish by writing things that are purposefully experimentally indistinguishable from SR when you have no underlying theory to derive them from? Is the second postulate of SR a first principle? Yes... Yes? Is it a first principle to claim the speed of light does not depend on the speed of the source, Yes... but then we will have to deal with time dilations and length contractions, in order to be able explain phenomena? No. These are /predictions/, not first principles. You might want to actually study a little science first. Well, if it is so that c' = c, *is a first principle from which SR can be derived, then c' = c Exp(-v/c^2) is also a first principle from which my model can be derived, and time dilations and length contractions will not be required. Except there is zero evidence for your model, and you haven't actually derived anything meaningful yet. You write down equations you think your model has, but you don't ever show where they come from. In fact, the equations you write are always arbitrary and only picked because they match some SR equation to a few orders in a power series expansion. Why should anyone care what you have to say at all when that is all you ever do? Sorry, I meant c'= c Exp(-v/c), hehe :-) BTW, just one question: If I can derive the prediction for the ratios of charged lepton masses (issue that noboby still can resolve), will you become a renegade of SR, and become a faithful supporter of my model? SR isn't a theory of interactions or particles. Try to understand the theory you seek to replace. |
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