If we observe the so called Pioneer anomaly as an unexpected
constant Doppler blue-shift drift, then we should expect a constant
Doppler red-shift drift, if the experiment were performed from a
Pioneer probe as the base reference and the Earth were the target.
From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude that the Earth is not
where it should be. IOW, we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying toward the Sun. Should we conclude then
that the Earth is radiating gravitational waves?

Dear Albertito:

On May 6, 10:29*am, Albertito wrote:
If we observe the so called Pioneer anomaly as
an unexpected constant Doppler blue-shift
drift, then we should expect a constant Doppler
red-shift drift, if the experiment were
performed from a Pioneer probe as the base
reference and the Earth were the target.

What would be the cause of this? I would be interested in the
mechanism you expect, and why it has not been seen so far.

From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude
that the Earth is not where it should be. IOW,
we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying *toward the Sun.

No, following your "model", the Sun and all the planets you are
passing also are anomalously accelerated away from you (Sunward).

Should we conclude then that the Earth is
radiating gravitational waves?

One (Pioneer anomaly) has nothing to do with the other (disspation of
angular momentum in quadrature, meaning above or below the ecliptic
where the Pioneer travelled).

David A. Smith

On May 6, 10:34 pm, dlzc wrote:
Dear Albertito:

On May 6, 10:29 am, Albertito wrote:

If we observe the so called Pioneer anomaly as
an unexpected constant Doppler blue-shift
drift, then we should expect a constant Doppler
red-shift drift, if the experiment were
performed from a Pioneer probe as the base
reference and the Earth were the target.

What would be the cause of this? I would be interested in the
mechanism you expect, and why it has not been seen so far.


Gravitational Doppler shifts occurring in a way that GR
can't predict.

From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude
that the Earth is not where it should be. IOW,
we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying toward the Sun.

No, following your "model", the Sun and all the planets you are
passing also are anomalously accelerated away from you (Sunward).


That's what I said, an anomalous acceleration toward
the Sun.


Should we conclude then that the Earth is
radiating gravitational waves?

One (Pioneer anomaly) has nothing to do with the other (disspation of
angular momentum in quadrature, meaning above or below the ecliptic
where the Pioneer travelled).

David A. Smith

Dear Albertito:

On May 8, 7:11*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 6, 10:34 wrote:
...
From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude
that the Earth is not where it should be. IOW,
we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying *toward the Sun.

No, following your "model", the Sun and all the
planets you are passing also are anomalously
accelerated away from you (Sunward).

That's what I said, an anomalous acceleration
toward the Sun.

Dude, did you read what I wrote? The Sun is acclerating away equally
fast. How can the Earth "orbitally decay towards the Sun", if the Sun
is also accelerated away?

David A. Smith

On May 8, 3:35 pm, dlzc wrote:
Dear Albertito:

On May 8, 7:11 am, Albertito wrote:

On May 6, 10:34 wrote:
...
From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude
that the Earth is not where it should be. IOW,
we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying toward the Sun.

No, following your "model", the Sun and all the
planets you are passing also are anomalously
accelerated away from you (Sunward).

That's what I said, an anomalous acceleration
toward the Sun.

Dude, did you read what I wrote? The Sun is acclerating away equally
fast. How can the Earth "orbitally decay towards the Sun", if the Sun
is also accelerated away?

David A. Smith

Well, there is a point called barycenter. We would wrongly
deduced from that Doppler effect that both the Earth and the
Sun are decaying toward solar system barycenter.

"dlzc" escreveu na mensagem
...
Dear Albertito:

On May 8, 7:11 am, Albertito wrote:
On May 6, 10:34 wrote:
....
From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude
that the Earth is not where it should be. IOW,
we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying toward the Sun.

No, following your "model", the Sun and all the
planets you are passing also are anomalously
accelerated away from you (Sunward).

That's what I said, an anomalous acceleration
toward the Sun.

Dude, did you read what I wrote? The Sun is acclerating away equally
fast. How can the Earth "orbitally decay towards the Sun", if the Sun
is also accelerated away?

Who's responsible for (an agrees upon) this?:
"The Sun is acclerating away equally fast (as Pioneer)."

If so, then a second Pioneer spacecraft moving in opposite
direction will experience redshift, instead of blueshift.

The funny is that Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, Ulysses and
Galileo took different paths and give more or less the same
anomalous acceleration.
Hence, I'm to believe the Sun is at the center of the
problem.

Dear Alberito:

On May 8, 7:42*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 8, 3:35 wrote:
On May 8, 7:11 am, Albertito wrote:
On May 6, 10:34 wrote:
...
From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude
that the Earth is not where it should be. IOW,
we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying *toward the Sun.

No, following your "model", the Sun and all the
planets you are passing also are anomalously
accelerated away from you (Sunward).

That's what I said, an anomalous acceleration
toward the Sun.

Dude, did you read what I wrote? *The Sun is
acclerating away equally fast. *How can the
Earth "orbitally decay towards the Sun", if the
Sun is also accelerated away?

Well, there is a point called barycenter. We
would wrongly deduced from that Doppler effect
that both the Earth and the Sun are decaying
toward solar system barycenter.

The Earth Sun barycenter is well inside the Sun, to the tune of a few
hundred meters (I think). The acceleration the Pioneer spacecraft is
experiencing would have consumed that distance by now.

Now remember, we "saw" the Pioneer spacecraft getting anomalously
*closer*, not further. Did you get your signs right in the initial
post?

David A. Smith

On May 8, 5:46 pm, dlzc wrote:
Dear Alberito:

On May 8, 7:42 am, Albertito wrote:



On May 8, 3:35 wrote:
On May 8, 7:11 am, Albertito wrote:
On May 6, 10:34 wrote:
...
From that point of view, we'd wrongly conclude
that the Earth is not where it should be. IOW,
we would observe the Earth from a Pioneer
probe as orbitally decaying toward the Sun.

No, following your "model", the Sun and all the
planets you are passing also are anomalously
accelerated away from you (Sunward).

That's what I said, an anomalous acceleration
toward the Sun.

Dude, did you read what I wrote? The Sun is
acclerating away equally fast. How can the
Earth "orbitally decay towards the Sun", if the
Sun is also accelerated away?

Well, there is a point called barycenter. We
would wrongly deduced from that Doppler effect
that both the Earth and the Sun are decaying
toward solar system barycenter.

The Earth Sun barycenter is well inside the Sun, to the tune of a few
hundred meters (I think). The acceleration the Pioneer spacecraft is
experiencing would have consumed that distance by now.


Yes, I take the signs right. My original post was
just the hypothesis of anomalous gravitational
Doppler shifts. Of course, we still don't know the
cause of Pioneer anomaly. Maybe, it is only
systematics. But, there is a possibility of new physics.
If the cause is gravitational, then we have an interesting
issue here. The possibility of anomalous gravitational
shifts shouldn't be rule out.

Now remember, we "saw" the Pioneer spacecraft getting anomalously
*closer*, not further. Did you get your signs right in the initial
post?

That would be only apparent *closer*, not real, if the cause is
*anomalous* gravitational shifts.

Dear Albertito:

On May 8, 10:27*am, Albertito wrote:
On May 8, 5:46 wrote:
...
The Earth Sun barycenter is well inside the Sun,
to the tune of a few hundred meters (I think).
*The acceleration the Pioneer spacecraft is
experiencing would have consumed that distance
by now.

Yes, I take the signs right. My original post was
just the hypothesis of anomalous gravitational
Doppler shifts. Of course, we still don't know the
cause of Pioneer anomaly.

Right.

Maybe, it is only systematics. But, there is a
possibility of new physics.

Not really, or at least not on something that is not discerning of
"object size". Because the velocities are not terribly different that
are already experienced by comets and such... which also don't undergo
the "anomalous" effects.

If the cause is gravitational, then we have an
interesting issue here. The possibility of
anomalous gravitational shifts shouldn't be rule
out.

*Have* to be. Other objects don't show this acceleration.

Now remember, we "saw" the Pioneer spacecraft
getting anomalously *closer*, not further. *Did
you get your signs right in the initial post?

That would be only apparent *closer*, not real,

But it would be closer *at both ends*. Largely, the acceleration was
detected by "round trip time of flight". Earth gets closer too.

if the cause is *anomalous* gravitational shifts.

Really unlikely as I said, since comets and planets are not affected.
But hey...

David A. Smith

On May 8, 7:10 pm, dlzc wrote:
Dear Albertito:

On May 8, 10:27 am, Albertito wrote:

On May 8, 5:46 wrote:
...
The Earth Sun barycenter is well inside the Sun,
to the tune of a few hundred meters (I think).
The acceleration the Pioneer spacecraft is
experiencing would have consumed that distance
by now.

Yes, I take the signs right. My original post was
just the hypothesis of anomalous gravitational
Doppler shifts. Of course, we still don't know the
cause of Pioneer anomaly.

Right.

Maybe, it is only systematics. But, there is a
possibility of new physics.

Not really, or at least not on something that is not discerning of
"object size". Because the velocities are not terribly different that
are already experienced by comets and such... which also don't undergo
the "anomalous" effects.

If the cause is gravitational, then we have an
interesting issue here. The possibility of
anomalous gravitational shifts shouldn't be rule
out.

*Have* to be. Other objects don't show this acceleration.

Now remember, we "saw" the Pioneer spacecraft
getting anomalously *closer*, not further. Did
you get your signs right in the initial post?

That would be only apparent *closer*, not real,

But it would be closer *at both ends*. Largely, the acceleration was
detected by "round trip time of flight". Earth gets closer too.

if the cause is *anomalous* gravitational shifts.

Really unlikely as I said, since comets and planets are not affected.
But hey...

David A. Smith

All objects that seem to show the Pioneer anomaly
have something in common: they all are escaping
the solar system with hyperbolic trajectories. Planets,
asteroids, satellites and comets in the solar system
exhibit elliptical orbits, so they do not show the Pioneer
anomaly. They are not actually escaping the solar system.
When an object escapes any gravitational system, it
transfers momentum to the system. When an object
enters into (it's being trapped by) a gravitational system,
it gains momentum from the system. These transactions
of momenta for object escaping or entering into gravitational
systems seem not to be very well accounted for by GR or
by Newtonian gravity. This physics must be better understood.
But until then, anomalous gravitational Doppler shifts shouldn't
be ruled out as a possible explanation of the Pioneer anomaly
and other 'graviational' anomalies observed in the solar system.