On Apr 27, 3:20*pm, jem wrote:
...
(Incidentally, don't presume that logically impossible occurrences can't
happen. *Our logic is just another model that's based on past
observations of Nature - it's as subject to falsification as any other
model.)

The construction of predictive logical systems to compare against
observation is what *defines* Science. *Your inability to understand
that, is your problem.

Mathematicians use contradiction to establish proofs of
incorrectness. Physicists use contradiction to excuse their ignorance
of nature or to hide the fact that their theories are wrong: they call
them 'paradoxes'.

You don't have to feed paradoxes food and water,
and they never leave puddles or droppings.
The bark is much worse than the bite.

Jeffâ–²Relf wrote:
A photon is a field.. not a particle, not a wave.
[...]

Once again we see that given enough random attempts something correct
may tumble out [#]. Everything else he said is useless (or worse), but
this one sentence is a precis of QED.

[#] Of course the difficulty is in knowing WHICH is correct
out of the zillions of attempts.


Tom Roberts

On Apr 27, 4:42*pm, none ""doug\"@(none)" wrote:
NoEinstein wrote:
On Apr 24, 6:08 am, "Tom Potter" wrote:
"PD" wrote in message
....
The list of "persona no grata" grows weekly. NoEinstein doesn't seem
to find many that he doesn't consider PNGs -- so far his acceptable
list includes Tom Potter with a provisional admission for Jeff Relf.
Congratulations PD!
The list of Bigots grows weekly.

So far the acceptable list includes:
PD
Art Deco
Eric Gisse
with a provisional admission for Uncle Al.

--
Tom Potter

http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/ind...crazyideas.blo...

** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

Dear Tom: *I keep hoping that I, or someone, can teach one of these
"old dogs" new tricks. *I don't have much hope for PD. *Eric Gisse has
periods of lucidity followed by dastardliness. *He may have (quite
common) schizophrenia. *I've had few replies from 'Art'; but Uncle Al
is all over the place on science. *Hard to understand why... *—
NoEinstein —

Uncle Al understands that you do not know any physics as do the rest of
the posters.
People are open to new truths but you have found none.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

:-} ~-

On Apr 27, 9:30*pm, wrote:
On Apr 27, 2:20*pm, jem wrote:





John Kennaugh wrote:
jem wrote:
John Kennaugh wrote:
jem wrote:
John Kennaugh wrote:
PD wrote:
On Apr 22, 9:00 am, John Kennaugh
wrote:

One cannot prove it is a wave only show evidence that it
might be. Similarly you cannot prove it is particles.
What is critical is evidence that it isn't a wave or
evidence that it isn't a particle. It cannot be both.

Why not?

One has to either explain how a wave can give an
impeccable impression of being a particle, or explain how
*particles *can give rise to very convincing wavelike
properties. To me the former is impossible the latter
exceedingly difficult. You may see it differently.

A US quarter exhibits the properties of a US president. It
also exhibits the properties of a carnivorous bird.
A US quarter is incapable of starting an unnecessary war
without having *even the vaguest plan as to what to do after
it had been 'won' neither *is it capable of eating flesh so a
US quarter exhibits *neither the *properties of a president
nor of a carnivorous bird.

PD overestimated your ability to extract the point from his
example. Try this. *A US quarter "gives an impeccable
impression" of being a picture of a president,

so using Kennaugh "logic" it's impossible, or at least
exceedingly difficult, for it to "give an impeccable
impression" of being a picture of an eagle too.
It has a picture of a president on one side and a picture of an
eagle on *the other. If it was cubic it could have six pictures
one on each side. A 'picture' is not fundamentally different to
another 'picture' physically they are built up using the same
technique of raised bits of *metal. They differ only in which
bits of metal are raised and by how *much and what is done on one
side in no way puts constraints on what is *done on the other and
you cannot distort "Kennaugh's logic" to imply *that it says it
does.

In order to learn from an analogy, Kennaugh, you need to look to
the similarities, not the dissimilarities.

The statement "light is a wave and particles" is a paradox.

Definition "Paradox" -A statement which is seemingly absurd but may
nevertheless be true.

Any useful analogy must include a paradox. There is nothing even
vaguely paradoxical about two sides of a coin having different images
on them. There are no similarities to look for in the so called an
analogy.

Paradoxes are in the eye of the beholder. *The light case is just as
trivially non-contradictory as the coin case - just not to you.

(Incidentally, don't presume that logically impossible occurrences can't
happen. *Our logic is just another model that's based on past
observations of Nature - it's as subject to falsification as any other
model.)

A wave on the other hand is a function of continuous fields and a
*photon *is definitely not continuous. Now if you watch a film it
looks to be a continuously moving picture but *you know that it
is made up of a series of fixed images. It doesn't mean *we have
to accept that it IS a continuously moving picture and IS also a
series of fixed images. It IS a series of fixed images which give
an *impeccable impression of being a moving picture. Light is not
both waves AND photons - although it might be neither. The most
promising approach is that light IS made up of photons which
together give an impeccable impression of being waves. Just as we
*understand how a series of fixed images can give rise to an
impression of continuously moving pictures it might be possible
to understand how photons can give the impression that they are
waves.

Light IS something* that exhibits *both* wave-like AND
particle-like behavior, but if it makes you happier to think that
light IS a particle which also "gives an impeccable impression" of
being a wave,

I do.

or IS a wave which also "gives an impeccable impression" of being a
*particle,

I cannot see how that would work.

go right ahead, because such distinctions are entirely irrelevant
to Science.

* Having discussed related issues with you before, I know it's
necessary to point out that light isn't something that exists in
Nature with properties that Science attempts to discover

I'm afraid it is. The fact that physics has redefined itself to the
point where is can no longer be considered "science" is not my
problem.

The construction of predictive logical systems to compare against
observation is what *defines* Science. *Your inability to understand
that, is your problem.

- it's something that exists in models of Nature where *what* it
is, is *exactly* what it's *defined* to be.

R.A.Waldron has suggested [1] a structural model of a photon with
*which *explains the wavelike properties of light but physics
doctrine has *declared that a photon has no internal structure
which is rather limiting. Like trying to explain how one gets the
impression of detailed *moving pictures from a series of blank
frames rather than assuming that *something in the nature of the
frames gives rise to the impression of *detailed moving pictures.

Your goal for physical models, Kennaugh, is to get them to conform
to your common-sense notions, but the modern view of Science is
that the proper goal for physical models is the accurate prediction
of experimental outcomes

So provided you can mathematically generate accurate tide tables
there is no need to enquire and try to understand the real physical
processes in nature which makes the tides go in and out. *What a
truly degenerate view of science.

It's not that there's "no need to" - there's /no way to/ - there's
simply nothing about Nature that can be verified other than the outcomes
of repeatable experiments (i.e. measurements). *The ontological
descriptions (i.e. models) which facilitate thinking about and talking
about the logical systems (i.e. the math) that Science creates to mirror
natural phenomena, simply *can't* be tested by observing Nature.

Case in point: LET and SRT are two distinct ontological models that are
based on the same mathematics (i.e. both models predict exactly the same
phenomenological behavior). *However, since Nature provides no
information except phenomenological behavior, it's clear that Nature
*can't* tell us which is the better model.

Understand? *The math is testable - the "ontologics" aren't. *Your quest
to understand Nature by discovering its driving mechanisms, is
pie-in-the-sky.

- common-sense needs to conform to accurate models.

[1] "The Spinning Photon" R.A.Waldron 1983 - Speculations in
Science and *Technology Vol6 No2- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Electricty and magnetism of light becomes the mass of electromagnetic
matter; *the proton and the electron.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dear Mitch: "Imagining" science mechanisms can be a... 1st step to
finding science truths—but ONLY if you abandon what you "imagined" as
soon as such violates some observation in nature. You have imagined
too many things that just don't work with anything else. Though I
can't "see" ether, such is the working mechanism for every physical,
mechanical, chemical, and biological process in the Universe. I've
tried to find other workable ideas, but ether fits as the "unification
force" for all of nature! — NoEinstein —

On Apr 27, 10:33 pm, Jeff$B"%(BRelf wrote:
Birth is the leading cause of death.
Given enough time, any immune system will give out,
and cancer is the result.

Consuming more ( especially alcohol and legal / illegal drugs )
makes one's immune system prematurely decrepit... that's called AIDS.

We have but one " choice ":
" Live faster ( consuming more ) or live longer. ".

This is true on a global level too, not just personally.
As I've said before..

Just as over-eating and over-drinking ruins one's health,
nations birthing too many kids and consuming too much crude oil
have ruined the health of the global economy.

To improve our health, we need more taxes and regulations,
especially child support " taxes ".

While " sperm donors " get an automatic ( computerized )
life-long irrevocable lien ( no judge can touch it )
accruing at 12 percent A.P.R. ( in " interest and penalties " )..

The mothers with young kids that I know get:
1,200 apartments for 120 dollars per month, free medical, free food,
free cash, free day care, free schooling ( college ), etc., etc.

No wonder people will do anything to immigrate to the U.S. !
" able-bodied males " ( like me ) get the bill.. nothing more.

Jeff: No... the leading cause of death is: Natural Causes! --
NoEinstein --

On Apr 28, 4:41 pm, Jeff$B"%(BRelf wrote:
A photon is a field.. not a particle, not a wave.
Each photon has a super-tiny 4-D gravitational field
that's invisible, unblockable and infinite in extent.

Your attemps to model photons as waves of billiard balls ( an aether )
fails completely.

All you've done is:
A. Failed to understand General Relativity.

B. Claimed G.R. is wrong.

C. Failed to offer a better way to mode what is, empirically,
the super-tiny 4-D gravitational field of a photon.

Jeff: Your determination to include "time" in your model should be
like this: 3D + t; NOT 4D! -- NoEinstein --

On Apr 28, 7:09*pm, Malrassic Park wrote:
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:41:11 +0000 (UTC), Jeff?Relf

wrote:
A photon is a field.. not a particle, not a wave.
Each photon has a super-tiny 4-D gravitational field
that's invisible, unblockable and infinite in extent.

You're making Einstein look like an idiot, so stop trying to help.
--

"I want to fight religion as the root of all
human lying and the only excuse for suffering."
Ayn Rand, militant atheist

:-) — NoEinstein —

On Apr 28, 8:16*pm, maxwell wrote:
On Apr 27, 3:20*pm, jem wrote: ...
(Incidentally, don't presume that logically impossible occurrences can't
happen. *Our logic is just another model that's based on past
observations of Nature - it's as subject to falsification as any other
model.)

The construction of predictive logical systems to compare against
observation is what *defines* Science. *Your inability to understand
that, is your problem.

Mathematicians use contradiction to establish proofs of
incorrectness. *Physicists use contradiction to excuse their ignorance
of nature or to hide the fact that their theories are wrong: they call
them 'paradoxes'.

:-) — NoEinstein —

On Apr 28, 8:58 pm, Jeff$B"%(BRelf wrote:
You don't have to feed paradoxes food and water,
and they never leave puddles or droppings.
The bark is much worse than the bite.

Jeff: The more things that agree from the most directions, the
greater is the likelihood a scientist is onto something! -- NoEinstein
--