On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:50:19 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:56:33 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson skrev:
Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch.

Each clock is software adjusted so that its rate is as close as possible to the
GC...after that, only very small corrections are required.
Actual GPS clock data measured by the ground stations can be found at:
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gps_datafiles.html

Below is a tiny excerpt of the data for the last 30 days.
I have shown the first and the last entry for each SV.
The table shows what the clock error is, and how much
it has changed during 30 days.

PRN Julian day clock error
1 54490.06701 -181263.7
1 54519.98368 -187755.1
2 54490.64201 -169105.0
2 54519.79479 -176782.5
3 54490.30035 -177788.4
3 54519.38646 -191137.3
4 54490.58646 57227.6
4 54519.72813 14049.3
5 54490.07813 -661179.4
5 54519.98368 -699917.9
8 54490.42257 138330.7
8 54519.51701 142174.2
9 54490.01146 -107278.9
9 54519.98368 -111959.0
10 54490.73090 222933.3
10 54519.85035 251627.2
11 54490.45590 -27039.0
11 54519.53924 -26982.6
12 54490.07813 354993.0
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
13 54519.70590 -241797.6
14 54490.01146 302989.6
14 54519.98368 294474.3
15 54490.01146 72735.4
15 54519.93924 79184.7
16 54490.21146 -132329.8
16 54519.33090 -132703.7
17 54490.50868 -43758.3
17 54519.65035 -42076.6
18 54490.01146 209686.4
18 54519.98368 201917.5
19 54490.33368 -18148.0
19 54519.43924 -21843.8
20 54490.20035 -121917.9
20 54519.59479 -119999.1
21 54490.01146 -73032.8
21 54519.98368 -71052.4
22 54490.01146 -207495.1
22 54519.98368 -208856.2
23 54490.25590 -328993.3
23 54519.33090 -336150.2
24 54490.01146 -65090.9
24 54519.93924 -72906.5
25 54490.36701 -503963.0
25 54519.45035 -516635.8
26 54490.83090 -165569.7
26 54519.89479 -191070.1
27 54490.37813 -163211.5
27 54519.48368 -169772.7
28 54490.47813 14182.0
28 54519.59479 15544.0
29 54490.79757 71673.8
29 54519.87257 56322.2
30 54490.14479 -61209.3
30 54519.71701 -65013.3
31 54490.10035 6616.5
31 54519.25313 10205.2


The table below show what the average rate error is
for each satellite clock during the last 30 days.

PRN Rate error
x10^-12
1 -2.51
2 -3.05
3 -5.31
4 -17.15
5 -14.99
8 1.53
9 -1.81
10 11.40
11 0.02
12 0.79
13 -2.17
14 -3.29
15 2.49
16 -0.15
17 0.67
18 -3.00
19 -1.47
20 0.76
21 0.76
22 -0.53
23 -2.85
24 -3.02
25 -5.04
26 -10.15
27 -2.61
28 0.54
29 -6.11
30 -1.49
31 1.42

I leave it to the reader to draw his conclusions.

These are merely recordings of typical clock drift.

Could you elaborate on that, please?

Let's take one concrete example.

The clock error of the SV with PRN 12
was on Julian day 54490.07813 354993.0 ns.
On Julian day 54519.98368 the error was 357044.3 ns.
So during 29.9 days the clock has drifted 2051.3 ns
more ahead of GPS-time. So the average rate error is
68.6 ns per day or 0.79*10^-12 too fast.

If the 'GR correction' was the right one none of this would happen!
hahahahhaha!

In what way is this 'merely recordings of typical clock drift'
as opposed to 'recordings of actual clock drifts'?

BTW, can you explain why the clocks drift in different
directions and by different amounts?

Not without more information.
I assume the above figures include a doppler shift component....otherwise the
drift is just random.

Don't forget that:
"Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch."
So why are the rates wrong?

Incidentally, I came across this statement in an article about GPS, "Studies
have also shown that solar radiation pressure models may need revision and
there is some new evidence that the earth’s magnetic field may contribute to a
small orbit period variation in the satellite clock frequencies".

I don't know what that is supposed to mean but it backs up my claim that
cutting the Earth's fields affects atomic clocks in orbit.



Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index 0.95.

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:06:55 GMT, "Androcles"
wrote:


"Randy Poe" wrote in message
...
| On Feb 23, 1:51 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

|
| No such rate change is part of the spec or listed in
| any sort of operational data available. So how do you
| come to know that this rate change "of course" occurs?
| Do you have access to non-public sources of information?
|
| Pray quote us some data on the tick rate before and
| after one of these rate changes.
|
Wilson was foolish enough to heed a crank (=relativist).
Like you, he doesn't think.

I can handle the papal guard on my own, thank you.

Here is some data on tick rate that you requested.
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/second.html

"The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation
corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground
state of the cesium 133 atom. "

But where is the clock.
We know from GPS that a cesium clock runs faster when in free fall and cutting
the Earth's fields.






Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index 0.95.

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:22:27 -0800 (PST), PD wrote:

On Feb 24, 3:25*pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:49:28 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"





wrote:
Dr. Henri Wilson skrev:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:37:43 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
Paul, let's try a little harder.

Let's say that after launch, an OC is found to emit 100000000000001 ticks for
every 100000000000000 ticks of the GC.

How would a Norwegian go about software synching the OC with the GC?

I eagerly await your answer.
Still don't know after all these years, Henri? :-)

1. The SV-clock is never adjusted while a satellite is in service,
* *the "clock data" are transmitted with no correction.
2. The "clock offset" tells what the error in the "clock data" is,
* *and is transmitted together with the "clock data".
3. The correction is done in the receiver, it will find the correct
* *time reported by the satellite by subtracting these two times.
4. The "clock offset" is updated (uploaded from the ground) typically
* *once per day.

No, wrong answer.
The correct one is that one tick is dropped for every 10000000000000 that
arrive....which makes the maximum error 1/10000000000000.
If the OC emitted 10000000000025 ticks for every 10000000000000 of the GC and
25 were dropped for avery 10000000000000 of the GC, then the maximum error
would be 25/10000000000000....so it is clear why it is advantageous to built-in
the approximate free fall error.

If there is anything else you still don't know, just ask.

Yes, If you wanted to send a vertical rod into orbit as a standard 1 metre
reference, what vertical length would you make it before launch?

Remember to include GR....
Done prior to launch.
That's why the rate of the orbiting clock is correct to one part in 10^14.
Had you forgotten that the GPS wouldn't work without the GR correction?

The GR prediction happens to be around the right order, purely by coincidence.
The fine tuning of the secondary clock is carried out after launch by altering
its relationship with the primary atomic oscillator by adding or dropping
'ticks' as explained above..

Sure Henri.
Whatever you say. :-)

Actually, it is quite possible that the increase in wavelength (but not
frequency) due to light's acceleration as it falls, causes a phase difference
error of the same magnitude.

Actually, it's quite possible that stratospheric ice monkeys intercept
the signals from the satellites and delay them by a small increment
before reradiating them downward. This is a *much* more plausible
explanation of the measured delays than the GR explanation, even if
the latter gets the number exactly right. I'm sure you can come up
with two dozen other candidates in a couple days' time, if you apply
yourself to the task.

Well one thing is certain Draper, the number of ticks leaving the clock PER GPS
ORBIT is the same as the number arriving on the ground PER ORBIT. That's how we
know the clocks physically change when sent into orbit.

However since the distance between 'falling ticks' increases on the way down,
any comparison of phase difference between two clock signals will be affected
accordingly....by the BaTh factor, 2gh/c^2


Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index 0.95.

On Feb 25, 3:24 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

Incidentally, I came across this statement in an article about
GPS, "Studies have also shown that solar radiation pressure models
may need revision and there is some new evidence that the earth's
magnetic field may contribute to a
small orbit period variation in the satellite clock frequencies".

You obviously took your quote from
http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm

I don't know what that is supposed to mean but it backs up my claim
that cutting the Earth's fields affects atomic clocks in orbit.

Nope. The interaction between the solar wind and Earth's magnetic
field causes systematic variations in the Earth's ionosphere, an
important source of error in GPS measurements.

The source that you cite has this to say about the role of relativity
in the GPS system:

'The precision of GPS measurements is so great that it requires the
application of Albert Einstein's special and general theories of
relativity for the reduction of its measurements. Professor Carroll
Alley of the University of Maryland once articulated the significance
of this fact at a scientific conference devoted to time measurement in
1979. He said, "I think it is appropriate ... to realize that the
first practical application of Einstein's ideas in actual engineering
situations are with us in the fact that clocks are now so stable that
one must take these small effects into account in a variety of systems
that are now undergoing development or are actually in use in
comparing time worldwide. It is no longer a matter of scientific
interest and scientific application, but it has moved into the realm
of engineering necessity." '
http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm

You are intentionally being deceitful, Henri, by withholding your
sources and refusing to cite anything that you cannot distort into
imagined support for your views. But that's not new, is it?

Jerry

On Feb 25, 12:24 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:50:19 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"



wrote:
Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:56:33 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson skrev:
Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch.

Each clock is software adjusted so that its rate is as close as possible to the
GC...after that, only very small corrections are required.
Actual GPS clock data measured by the ground stations can be found at:
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gps_datafiles.html

Below is a tiny excerpt of the data for the last 30 days.
I have shown the first and the last entry for each SV.
The table shows what the clock error is, and how much
it has changed during 30 days.

PRN Julian day clock error
1 54490.06701 -181263.7
1 54519.98368 -187755.1
2 54490.64201 -169105.0
2 54519.79479 -176782.5
3 54490.30035 -177788.4
3 54519.38646 -191137.3
4 54490.58646 57227.6
4 54519.72813 14049.3
5 54490.07813 -661179.4
5 54519.98368 -699917.9
8 54490.42257 138330.7
8 54519.51701 142174.2
9 54490.01146 -107278.9
9 54519.98368 -111959.0
10 54490.73090 222933.3
10 54519.85035 251627.2
11 54490.45590 -27039.0
11 54519.53924 -26982.6
12 54490.07813 354993.0
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
13 54519.70590 -241797.6
14 54490.01146 302989.6
14 54519.98368 294474.3
15 54490.01146 72735.4
15 54519.93924 79184.7
16 54490.21146 -132329.8
16 54519.33090 -132703.7
17 54490.50868 -43758.3
17 54519.65035 -42076.6
18 54490.01146 209686.4
18 54519.98368 201917.5
19 54490.33368 -18148.0
19 54519.43924 -21843.8
20 54490.20035 -121917.9
20 54519.59479 -119999.1
21 54490.01146 -73032.8
21 54519.98368 -71052.4
22 54490.01146 -207495.1
22 54519.98368 -208856.2
23 54490.25590 -328993.3
23 54519.33090 -336150.2
24 54490.01146 -65090.9
24 54519.93924 -72906.5
25 54490.36701 -503963.0
25 54519.45035 -516635.8
26 54490.83090 -165569.7
26 54519.89479 -191070.1
27 54490.37813 -163211.5
27 54519.48368 -169772.7
28 54490.47813 14182.0
28 54519.59479 15544.0
29 54490.79757 71673.8
29 54519.87257 56322.2
30 54490.14479 -61209.3
30 54519.71701 -65013.3
31 54490.10035 6616.5
31 54519.25313 10205.2

The table below show what the average rate error is
for each satellite clock during the last 30 days.

PRN Rate error
x10^-12
1 -2.51
2 -3.05
3 -5.31
4 -17.15
5 -14.99
8 1.53
9 -1.81
10 11.40
11 0.02
12 0.79
13 -2.17
14 -3.29
15 2.49
16 -0.15
17 0.67
18 -3.00
19 -1.47
20 0.76
21 0.76
22 -0.53
23 -2.85
24 -3.02
25 -5.04
26 -10.15
27 -2.61
28 0.54
29 -6.11
30 -1.49
31 1.42

I leave it to the reader to draw his conclusions.

These are merely recordings of typical clock drift.

Could you elaborate on that, please?

Let's take one concrete example.

The clock error of the SV with PRN 12
was on Julian day 54490.07813 354993.0 ns.
On Julian day 54519.98368 the error was 357044.3 ns.
So during 29.9 days the clock has drifted 2051.3 ns
more ahead of GPS-time. So the average rate error is
68.6 ns per day or 0.79*10^-12 too fast.

If the 'GR correction' was the right one none of this would happen!
hahahahhaha!



In what way is this 'merely recordings of typical clock drift'
as opposed to 'recordings of actual clock drifts'?

BTW, can you explain why the clocks drift in different
directions and by different amounts?

Not without more information.
I assume the above figures include a doppler shift component....otherwise the
drift is just random.

Don't forget that:
"Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch."
So why are the rates wrong?

Incidentally, I came across this statement in an article about GPS, "Studies
have also shown that solar radiation pressure models may need revision and
there is some new evidence that the earth's magnetic field may contribute to a
small orbit period variation in the satellite clock frequencies".

I don't know what that is supposed to mean but it backs up my claim that
cutting the Earth's fields affects atomic clocks in orbit.

You have no idea what it means but your SURE it backs up your claim?
Yea, that didn't make any sense to me either.


Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index 0.95.

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:02:19 -0800 (PST), Jerry
wrote:

On Feb 25, 3:24 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

Incidentally, I came across this statement in an article about
GPS, "Studies have also shown that solar radiation pressure models
may need revision and there is some new evidence that the earth's
magnetic field may contribute to a
small orbit period variation in the satellite clock frequencies".

You obviously took your quote from
http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm

I don't know what that is supposed to mean but it backs up my claim
that cutting the Earth's fields affects atomic clocks in orbit.

Nope. The interaction between the solar wind and Earth's magnetic
field causes systematic variations in the Earth's ionosphere, an
important source of error in GPS measurements.

The source that you cite has this to say about the role of relativity
in the GPS system:

'The precision of GPS measurements is so great that it requires the
application of Albert Einstein's special and general theories of
relativity for the reduction of its measurements. Professor Carroll
Alley of the University of Maryland once articulated the significance
of this fact at a scientific conference devoted to time measurement in
1979. He said, "I think it is appropriate ... to realize that the
first practical application of Einstein's ideas in actual engineering
situations are with us in the fact that clocks are now so stable that
one must take these small effects into account in a variety of systems
that are now undergoing development or are actually in use in
comparing time worldwide. It is no longer a matter of scientific
interest and scientific application, but it has moved into the realm
of engineering necessity." '
http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm

That could have been written by yourself..or Tom Roberts...or maybe even
geesey.

You are intentionally being deceitful, Henri, by withholding your
sources and refusing to cite anything that you cannot distort into
imagined support for your views. But that's not new, is it?

Jerry

Wake up Jerry, it's all a fairytale.

You have been sold a lemon...

Einstein's Relativity is plain nonsense from start to finish.



Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index 0.95.

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:50:19 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:56:33 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson skrev:
Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch.

Each clock is software adjusted so that its rate is as close as possible to the
GC...after that, only very small corrections are required.
Actual GPS clock data measured by the ground stations can be found at:
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gps_datafiles.html

Below is a tiny excerpt of the data for the last 30 days.
I have shown the first and the last entry for each SV.
The table shows what the clock error is, and how much
it has changed during 30 days.

PRN Julian day clock error
1 54490.06701 -181263.7
1 54519.98368 -187755.1
2 54490.64201 -169105.0
2 54519.79479 -176782.5
3 54490.30035 -177788.4
3 54519.38646 -191137.3
4 54490.58646 57227.6
4 54519.72813 14049.3
5 54490.07813 -661179.4
5 54519.98368 -699917.9
8 54490.42257 138330.7
8 54519.51701 142174.2
9 54490.01146 -107278.9
9 54519.98368 -111959.0
10 54490.73090 222933.3
10 54519.85035 251627.2
11 54490.45590 -27039.0
11 54519.53924 -26982.6
12 54490.07813 354993.0
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
13 54519.70590 -241797.6
14 54490.01146 302989.6
14 54519.98368 294474.3
15 54490.01146 72735.4
15 54519.93924 79184.7
16 54490.21146 -132329.8
16 54519.33090 -132703.7
17 54490.50868 -43758.3
17 54519.65035 -42076.6
18 54490.01146 209686.4
18 54519.98368 201917.5
19 54490.33368 -18148.0
19 54519.43924 -21843.8
20 54490.20035 -121917.9
20 54519.59479 -119999.1
21 54490.01146 -73032.8
21 54519.98368 -71052.4
22 54490.01146 -207495.1
22 54519.98368 -208856.2
23 54490.25590 -328993.3
23 54519.33090 -336150.2
24 54490.01146 -65090.9
24 54519.93924 -72906.5
25 54490.36701 -503963.0
25 54519.45035 -516635.8
26 54490.83090 -165569.7
26 54519.89479 -191070.1
27 54490.37813 -163211.5
27 54519.48368 -169772.7
28 54490.47813 14182.0
28 54519.59479 15544.0
29 54490.79757 71673.8
29 54519.87257 56322.2
30 54490.14479 -61209.3
30 54519.71701 -65013.3
31 54490.10035 6616.5
31 54519.25313 10205.2


The table below show what the average rate error is
for each satellite clock during the last 30 days.

PRN Rate error
x10^-12
1 -2.51
2 -3.05
3 -5.31
4 -17.15
5 -14.99
8 1.53
9 -1.81
10 11.40
11 0.02
12 0.79
13 -2.17
14 -3.29
15 2.49
16 -0.15
17 0.67
18 -3.00
19 -1.47
20 0.76
21 0.76
22 -0.53
23 -2.85
24 -3.02
25 -5.04
26 -10.15
27 -2.61
28 0.54
29 -6.11
30 -1.49
31 1.42

I leave it to the reader to draw his conclusions.
These are merely recordings of typical clock drift.
Could you elaborate on that, please?

Let's take one concrete example.

The clock error of the SV with PRN 12
was on Julian day 54490.07813 354993.0 ns.
On Julian day 54519.98368 the error was 357044.3 ns.
So during 29.9 days the clock has drifted 2051.3 ns
more ahead of GPS-time. So the average rate error is
68.6 ns per day or 0.79*10^-12 too fast.

If the 'GR correction' was the right one none of this would happen!

Thanks again for confirming this
Wilsonian thinking:
"If the prediction is in accorance with the measurement within
the precision of the measurement, then the prediction is proven
wrong."

hahahahhaha!

Indeed!

In what way is this 'merely recordings of typical clock drift'
as opposed to 'recordings of actual clock drifts'?

BTW, can you explain why the clocks drift in different
directions and by different amounts?

Not without more information.
I assume the above figures include a doppler shift component....otherwise the
drift is just random.

Doppler shift? How stupid. :-)
Clocks are not infinitely precise, some run a little too
fast, some run a little too slow. The distribution is random.
And there are relativistic effects which are not corrected for,
such as the oblateness of the Earth, effects from the Sun and
the Moon, the orbit may not be perfectly circular etc..
These effects are quite small (possibly with exception of
the last one - if the eccenticity is big), but nevertheless
will they contribute to a deviation in the rate.


Don't forget that:
"Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch."
So why are the rates wrong?

Wouldn't answer that one, would you? :-)

The obvious answer is that the rates are wrong because
the precision of the clocks is finite, and the rate of
each clock is _not_ corrected after launch.
So the clocks that are running too fast or too slow
will keep doing so year after year, that's why
the accumulated clock error can be considerable, up to 0.7ms.
If the rate of each clock were 'fine tuned' after launch,
the accumulated error would never be so big.

Note however that the rate error for the vast majority
of the clocks is less than 1% of the GR-correction.
The average rate error is -2.29E-12, which is 0.5%
of the GR correction.
This proves that the GR correction is correct within
the precision of the clocks.


Incidentally, I came across this statement in an article about GPS, "Studies
have also shown that solar radiation pressure models may need revision and
there is some new evidence that the earth’s magnetic field may contribute to a
small orbit period variation in the satellite clock frequencies".

I don't know what that is supposed to mean but it backs up my claim that
cutting the Earth's fields affects atomic clocks in orbit.

Is there any particular reason why you didn't give a reference
to where you found the quotation above?
http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm

Of course I understand why you didn't.
If you really read that article, you know much of what I told you above.
So why do you keep pretending that you don't?

--
Paul

http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:11:47 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:50:19 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"

The clock error of the SV with PRN 12
was on Julian day 54490.07813 354993.0 ns.
On Julian day 54519.98368 the error was 357044.3 ns.
So during 29.9 days the clock has drifted 2051.3 ns
more ahead of GPS-time. So the average rate error is
68.6 ns per day or 0.79*10^-12 too fast.

If the 'GR correction' was the right one none of this would happen!

Thanks again for confirming this
Wilsonian thinking:
"If the prediction is in accorance with the measurement within
the precision of the measurement, then the prediction is proven
wrong."

hahahahhaha!

Indeed!

andersen: "after the GR correction is incorporated, the clocks are never need
adjustment....except for the regular adjustement twice per day."

Ho Hum!


In what way is this 'merely recordings of typical clock drift'
as opposed to 'recordings of actual clock drifts'?

BTW, can you explain why the clocks drift in different
directions and by different amounts?

Not without more information.
I assume the above figures include a doppler shift component....otherwise the
drift is just random.

Doppler shift? How stupid. :-)
Clocks are not infinitely precise, some run a little too
fast, some run a little too slow. The distribution is random.
And there are relativistic effects which are not corrected for,
such as the oblateness of the Earth, effects from the Sun and
the Moon, the orbit may not be perfectly circular etc..

There are NO relativity effects.

These effects are quite small (possibly with exception of
the last one - if the eccenticity is big), but nevertheless
will they contribute to a deviation in the rate.

they might affect the physical attributes of the clock and cause its rate to
randomly vary slightly.


Don't forget that:
"Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch."
So why are the rates wrong?

Wouldn't answer that one, would you? :-)

The obvious answer is that the rates are wrong because
the precision of the clocks is finite, and the rate of
each clock is _not_ corrected after launch.
So the clocks that are running too fast or too slow
will keep doing so year after year, that's why
the accumulated clock error can be considerable, up to 0.7ms.
If the rate of each clock were 'fine tuned' after launch,
the accumulated error would never be so big.

The rate of each clock is software corrected after launch to synch closely with
the GC.
Only a real idiot or a relativist would not perform such an adjustment.

Note however that the rate error for the vast majority
of the clocks is less than 1% of the GR-correction.

Hahahahaha!
You read that in an article written by a relativist..

The average rate error is -2.29E-12, which is 0.5%
of the GR correction.
This proves that the GR correction is correct within
the precision of the clocks.

Bull. The rate after launch varies from clock to clock and has never been
accurately checked for obvious reasons.


Incidentally, I came across this statement in an article about GPS, "Studies
have also shown that solar radiation pressure models may need revision and
there is some new evidence that the earth’s magnetic field may contribute to a
small orbit period variation in the satellite clock frequencies".

I don't know what that is supposed to mean but it backs up my claim that
cutting the Earth's fields affects atomic clocks in orbit.

Is there any particular reason why you didn't give a reference
to where you found the quotation above?
http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm

Of course I understand why you didn't.
If you really read that article, you know much of what I told you above.
So why do you keep pretending that you don't?

Jerry knows the arrticle. It states plainly that clocks are probably affected
by the Earth's magnetic field.



Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index 0.95.

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:11:47 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:50:19 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"

The clock error of the SV with PRN 12
was on Julian day 54490.07813 354993.0 ns.
On Julian day 54519.98368 the error was 357044.3 ns.
So during 29.9 days the clock has drifted 2051.3 ns
more ahead of GPS-time. So the average rate error is
68.6 ns per day or 0.79*10^-12 too fast.
If the 'GR correction' was the right one none of this would happen!
Thanks again for confirming this
Wilsonian thinking:
"If the prediction is in accorance with the measurement within
the precision of the measurement, then the prediction is proven
wrong."

hahahahhaha!
Indeed!

andersen: "after the GR correction is incorporated, the clocks are never need
adjustment....except for the regular adjustement twice per day."

Right.
A bit more precisely put:

1. The SV-clock is never adjusted while a satellite is in service,
the "clock data" are transmitted with no correction.
2. The "clock offset" tells what the error in the "clock data" is,
and is transmitted together with the "clock data".
3. The correction is done in the receiver, it will find the correct
time reported by the satellite by subtracting these two times.
4. The "clock offset" is updated (uploaded from the ground) typically
once per day.

Ho Hum!

Indeed.
Frustrating to see that the actual messured data prove
you wrong, is it? :-)

In what way is this 'merely recordings of typical clock drift'
as opposed to 'recordings of actual clock drifts'?

BTW, can you explain why the clocks drift in different
directions and by different amounts?
Not without more information.
I assume the above figures include a doppler shift component....otherwise the
drift is just random.
Doppler shift? How stupid. :-)
Clocks are not infinitely precise, some run a little too
fast, some run a little too slow. The distribution is random.
And there are relativistic effects which are not corrected for,
such as the oblateness of the Earth, effects from the Sun and
the Moon, the orbit may not be perfectly circular etc..

There are NO relativity effects.

These effects are quite small (possibly with exception of
the last one - if the eccenticity is big), but nevertheless
will they contribute to a deviation in the rate.

they might affect the physical attributes of the clock and cause its rate to
randomly vary slightly.


Don't forget that:
"Of course the bloody rate is changed after launch."
So why are the rates wrong?
Wouldn't answer that one, would you? :-)

The obvious answer is that the rates are wrong because
the precision of the clocks is finite, and the rate of
each clock is _not_ corrected after launch.
So the clocks that are running too fast or too slow
will keep doing so year after year, that's why
the accumulated clock error can be considerable, up to 0.7ms.
If the rate of each clock were 'fine tuned' after launch,
the accumulated error would never be so big.

The rate of each clock is software corrected after launch to synch closely with
the GC.
Only a real idiot or a relativist would not perform such an adjustment.

The actual measured data prove you wrong.

Note however that the rate error for the vast majority
of the clocks is less than 1% of the GR-correction.

Hahahahaha!
You read that in an article written by a relativist..

No, I read that from the actual measured data
which you now have snipped.

Look at them again:

Actual GPS clock data measured by the ground stations can be found at:
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gps_datafiles.html

Below is a tiny excerpt of the data for the last 30 days.
I have shown the first and the last entry for each SV.
The table shows what the clock error is, and how much
it has changed during 30 days.

PRN Julian day clock error
1 54490.06701 -181263.7
1 54519.98368 -187755.1
2 54490.64201 -169105.0
2 54519.79479 -176782.5
3 54490.30035 -177788.4
3 54519.38646 -191137.3
4 54490.58646 57227.6
4 54519.72813 14049.3
5 54490.07813 -661179.4
5 54519.98368 -699917.9
8 54490.42257 138330.7
8 54519.51701 142174.2
9 54490.01146 -107278.9
9 54519.98368 -111959.0
10 54490.73090 222933.3
10 54519.85035 251627.2
11 54490.45590 -27039.0
11 54519.53924 -26982.6
12 54490.07813 354993.0
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
13 54519.70590 -241797.6
14 54490.01146 302989.6
14 54519.98368 294474.3
15 54490.01146 72735.4
15 54519.93924 79184.7
16 54490.21146 -132329.8
16 54519.33090 -132703.7
17 54490.50868 -43758.3
17 54519.65035 -42076.6
18 54490.01146 209686.4
18 54519.98368 201917.5
19 54490.33368 -18148.0
19 54519.43924 -21843.8
20 54490.20035 -121917.9
20 54519.59479 -119999.1
21 54490.01146 -73032.8
21 54519.98368 -71052.4
22 54490.01146 -207495.1
22 54519.98368 -208856.2
23 54490.25590 -328993.3
23 54519.33090 -336150.2
24 54490.01146 -65090.9
24 54519.93924 -72906.5
25 54490.36701 -503963.0
25 54519.45035 -516635.8
26 54490.83090 -165569.7
26 54519.89479 -191070.1
27 54490.37813 -163211.5
27 54519.48368 -169772.7
28 54490.47813 14182.0
28 54519.59479 15544.0
29 54490.79757 71673.8
29 54519.87257 56322.2
30 54490.14479 -61209.3
30 54519.71701 -65013.3
31 54490.10035 6616.5
31 54519.25313 10205.2

The table below show what the average rate error is
for each satellite clock during the last 30 days.

PRN Rate error
x10-12
1 -2.51
2 -3.05
3 -5.31
4 -17.15
5 -14.99
8 1.53
9 -1.81
10 11.40
11 0.02
12 0.79
13 -2.17
14 -3.29
15 2.49
16 -0.15
17 0.67
18 -3.00
19 -1.47
20 0.76
21 0.76
22 -0.53
23 -2.85
24 -3.02
25 -5.04
26 -10.15
27 -2.61
28 0.54
29 -6.11
30 -1.49
31 1.42


These actual measured data show that:
The average rate error is -2.29E-12, which is 0.5%
of the GR correction.
This proves that the GR correction is correct within
the precision of the clocks.

Checkmate, Henri.
You cannot make the actual measured data go away by
calling them:
Bull.

You are really something, Henri! :-)
Henri Wilson:
The rate after launch varies from clock to clock and has never been
accurately checked for obvious reasons.

Henri Wilson:
"The rate of each clock is software corrected after launch
to synch closely with the GC."

Fun to be a laughing stock, Henri? :-)

--
Paul, still amused after all these years

http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:17:30 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:

Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:11:47 +0100, "Paul B. Andersen"
wrote:


Actual GPS clock data measured by the ground stations can be found at:
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gps_datafiles.html

Below is a tiny excerpt of the data for the last 30 days.
I have shown the first and the last entry for each SV.
The table shows what the clock error is, and how much
it has changed during 30 days.

PRN Julian day clock error
1 54490.06701 -181263.7
1 54519.98368 -187755.1
2 54490.64201 -169105.0
2 54519.79479 -176782.5
3 54490.30035 -177788.4
3 54519.38646 -191137.3
4 54490.58646 57227.6
4 54519.72813 14049.3
5 54490.07813 -661179.4
5 54519.98368 -699917.9
8 54490.42257 138330.7
8 54519.51701 142174.2
9 54490.01146 -107278.9
9 54519.98368 -111959.0
10 54490.73090 222933.3
10 54519.85035 251627.2
11 54490.45590 -27039.0
11 54519.53924 -26982.6
12 54490.07813 354993.0
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
12 54519.98368 357044.3
13 54490.31146 -236284.6
13 54519.70590 -241797.6
14 54490.01146 302989.6
14 54519.98368 294474.3
15 54490.01146 72735.4
15 54519.93924 79184.7
16 54490.21146 -132329.8
16 54519.33090 -132703.7
17 54490.50868 -43758.3
17 54519.65035 -42076.6
18 54490.01146 209686.4
18 54519.98368 201917.5
19 54490.33368 -18148.0
19 54519.43924 -21843.8
20 54490.20035 -121917.9
20 54519.59479 -119999.1
21 54490.01146 -73032.8
21 54519.98368 -71052.4
22 54490.01146 -207495.1
22 54519.98368 -208856.2
23 54490.25590 -328993.3
23 54519.33090 -336150.2
24 54490.01146 -65090.9
24 54519.93924 -72906.5
25 54490.36701 -503963.0
25 54519.45035 -516635.8
26 54490.83090 -165569.7
26 54519.89479 -191070.1
27 54490.37813 -163211.5
27 54519.48368 -169772.7
28 54490.47813 14182.0
28 54519.59479 15544.0
29 54490.79757 71673.8
29 54519.87257 56322.2
30 54490.14479 -61209.3
30 54519.71701 -65013.3
31 54490.10035 6616.5
31 54519.25313 10205.2

The table below show what the average rate error is
for each satellite clock during the last 30 days.

PRN Rate error
x10-12
1 -2.51
2 -3.05
3 -5.31
4 -17.15
5 -14.99
8 1.53
9 -1.81
10 11.40
11 0.02
12 0.79
13 -2.17
14 -3.29
15 2.49
16 -0.15
17 0.67
18 -3.00
19 -1.47
20 0.76
21 0.76
22 -0.53
23 -2.85
24 -3.02
25 -5.04
26 -10.15
27 -2.61
28 0.54
29 -6.11
30 -1.49
31 1.42


These actual measured data show that:
The average rate error is -2.29E-12, which is 0.5%
of the GR correction.
This proves that the GR correction is correct within
the precision of the clocks.

Checkmate, Henri.
You cannot make the actual measured data go away by
calling them:
Bull.

You are really something, Henri! :-)
Henri Wilson:
The rate after launch varies from clock to clock and has never been
accurately checked for obvious reasons.

Henri Wilson:
"The rate of each clock is software corrected after launch
to synch closely with the GC."

Fun to be a laughing stock, Henri? :-)

Paul, you keep repeating the same irrelevant numbers.

The main software adjustment is made immediately after launch.
YOUR figures show daily clock drift over and above the main correction.

....and you still haven't explained how the GO sees the OC running FAST by 12
us/year whilst the OO sees the GC running SLOW by 19 us/year. (according to
Einstein, that is)


Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)
www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

Einstein's Relativity is easy to understand if one has the IQ of a parrot and a gullibility index 0.95.