On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:54:14 -0800 (PST), Randy Poe
wrote:

On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:
According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING 52us per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms ahead of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?

What do their clocks read, dopey?

- Randy



Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)

www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:22:52 -0800 (PST), Paul Cardinale
wrote:



Dr. Henri Wilson wrote:
According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING 52us per
day.


False.

Well, that's what your colleague Jekyl reckons..
I know he's an idiot but I thonk he actually got this one right.

I also know YOU are an idiot.


Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)

www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:05:59 +1100, "Jeckyl" wrote:

"Koobee Wublee" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 7:54 pm, Randy Poe wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground
clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative
speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING 52us
per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms ahead
of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?

Is Mr. Poe really as blind as Androcles has claimed you to be?

This is a classical case of the twin's paradox if you have not
realized it finally. It is absolutely impossible to resolve because
of the mathematics of the Lorentz transform.

It doesn't need to be 'resolved' as there is no real paradox involved .. and
it is *due* to the Lorentz transforms .. they predict it. Get it right,
dumbo.

So what's the answer?
When the clocks are reunited, do they differ by 19ms or 13ms?

Or are you forced to admit that Einstein's theory is a load of crap?


Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)

www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

"Dr. Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:05:59 +1100, "Jeckyl" wrote:

"Koobee Wublee" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 7:54 pm, Randy Poe wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground
clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative
speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING
52us
per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms
ahead
of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?

Is Mr. Poe really as blind as Androcles has claimed you to be?

This is a classical case of the twin's paradox if you have not
realized it finally. It is absolutely impossible to resolve because
of the mathematics of the Lorentz transform.

It doesn't need to be 'resolved' as there is no real paradox involved ..
and
it is *due* to the Lorentz transforms .. they predict it. Get it right,
dumbo.

So what's the answer?

There is no question. Other than "can one explain the so-called twin
paradox result using relativity", and one certainly can (and via a number of
approaches to the problem)

When the clocks are reunited, do they differ by 19ms or 13ms?

In the twins paradox? Once one has the parameters of the experiment, one
can calculate the difference in elapsed time for the two paths. I've seen
it done many times. Haven't you?

In the case of a GPS satellite returning to earth, the calculations are
quite complex and it would not be possible to say without a *lot* of
information what the difference would be .. I wouldn't like to attempt it
myself. That there would be some difference, we already know from other
experiments/observations.

Or are you forced to admit that Einstein's theory is a load of crap?

No .. only your pitiful lack of understanding

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:29:15 +1100, "Jeckyl" wrote:

"Dr. Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:05:59 +1100, "Jeckyl" wrote:

"Koobee Wublee" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 7:54 pm, Randy Poe wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground
clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative
speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING
52us
per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms
ahead
of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?

Is Mr. Poe really as blind as Androcles has claimed you to be?

This is a classical case of the twin's paradox if you have not
realized it finally. It is absolutely impossible to resolve because
of the mathematics of the Lorentz transform.

It doesn't need to be 'resolved' as there is no real paradox involved ..
and
it is *due* to the Lorentz transforms .. they predict it. Get it right,
dumbo.

So what's the answer?

There is no question. Other than "can one explain the so-called twin
paradox result using relativity", and one certainly can (and via a number of
approaches to the problem)

When the clocks are reunited, do they differ by 19ms or 13ms?

In the twins paradox? Once one has the parameters of the experiment, one
can calculate the difference in elapsed time for the two paths. I've seen
it done many times. Haven't you?

In the case of a GPS satellite returning to earth, the calculations are
quite complex and it would not be possible to say without a *lot* of
information what the difference would be .. I wouldn't like to attempt it
myself. That there would be some difference, we already know from other
experiments/observations.

You rally have no idea what you are talking about, do you.
The twins paradox is a thought experiment.

GPS clocks are real.
If the OC runs 19ms/y faster than the GC and the GC runs 13 ms/y slower than
the OC, what is the difference in clock readings when the OC is brought back to
Earth?

Or are you forced to admit that Einstein's theory is a load of crap?

No .. only your pitiful lack of understanding




Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T)

www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm

"Randy Poe" wrote in message
...
| On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:
| According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground
clock.
| That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative
speed.
|
| Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING 52us
per
| day.
|
| After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms ahead
of the
| GC.
| However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.
|
| What happens when the clocks are reunited?
| Who is right?
|
| Two people drive different routes from city A to
| city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
| 220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
| right?

Your question is illogical; it should be:
"WHERE they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?"

So how far is it from A to B as the crow flies?

"snapdragon31" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 8:54 pm, Randy Poe wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground
clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative
speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING 52us
per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms ahead
of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?

- Randy

| According to relativity, both odometer readings are wrong. They do
| not represent the true distance of the routes travelled because of the
| length contraction effect.
| According to Newton's law, both odometer readings are right.

| The GPS clock paradox is a variation of the twin paradox, so no valid
| solution.

The paradox resides in the third postulate.

'the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals
the "time" it requires to travel from B to A' -- Albert Einstein

The time for a signal to get from the satellite to the receiver
does not equal the time for an uplink because the satellite has
moved, obviously.

On Jan 29, 10:40*pm, "Jeckyl" wrote:
"snapdragon31" wrote in message

...





On Jan 29, 8:54 pm, Randy Poe wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground
clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative
speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING 52us
per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms ahead
of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?
According to relativity, both odometer readings are wrong. *They do
not represent the true distance of the routes travelled because of the
length contraction effect.

It was an anlogy only .. derr .. to illustrate that taking different paths
in space gives you different elapsed distances .. and that similarly
different paths in space time can give you different elapsed times. *And
there is no such thing as 'true distance' in any case.

According to Newton's law, both odometer readings are right.

Just as in SR, both clocks are right in the so-called twins paradox. *They
are simply measuring different quantities.

The GPS clock paradox is a variation of the twin paradox, so no valid
solution.

Why not .. the so-called twins paradox is well explained by relativity by a
number of methods (all giving the same results) .. why do you think there is
no 'solution'? *Why do you even think there is something there that needs
solving?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, there are tons of solutions to the twin paradox but none of them
is a valid solution.
Let me show you why it is a logical problem that has no solution.
Assuming that Lorentz transformation can predict the time and distance
of the other frame.
Let v = velocity of the moving twin M
x = distance measured by stationary twin S
t = time measured by twin S
x' = distance measured by twin M
t' = time measured by twin M

The information we have is:
1. v - velocity of moving twin.
2. x = v * t
3. x' = v * t'
4. x' = x * sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)
5. t' = t * sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)

I hate equations. Let me convert them into numbers.
Let v = 0.995c and x = 10c both v and x can be measured accurately
1/gamma = sqrt(1 - 0.995^2) = 0.1
From the point of view of twin S.
Eq 2. t = x / v = 10c / 0.995c = 10.05 years
Eq 4. x' = x * sqrt(1 - 0.995^2) = x * 0.1 = c
Eq 5. t' = t * 0.1 = 1.005 years (Calculated)
x' = c and
v * t' = 0.995c * 10.05 = c
Eq 3. x' = v * t' = c

Using Lorentz transformation the calculated time twin M used is 1.005
years.
So far so good if the time measured by twin M is 1.005 years for the
whole journey.

1'. v - velocity of moving twin (S).
2'. x' = v * t'
3'. x = v * t
4'. x = x' * sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)
5'. t = t' * sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)

Assuming that the measured time is the same as the calculated time =
1.005 year.
From twin M's point of view:
v = 0.995c Velocity of twin S and it can be measured by accurately
t' = 1.005 years (measured)
Eq 2'. x' = 0.995c * 1.005 = c
Eq 4'. x = x' * 0.1 = c * 0.1 = 0.1c (Calculated)
Eq 5'. t = t1 * 0.1 = 0.1005 year
x = 0.1c and v * t = 0.995c * 0.1005 = 0.1c
Eq 3'. x = v * t = 0.1c

So far there is still no problem as long as the calculated x and the
measured x are the same. Unfortunately, the calculated x = 0.1c and
the measured x = 10c.
As a conclusion, Lorentz transformation is not valid at least in one
situation.

Please note that 'stationary' and 'moving' are relative.

"Dr. Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:29:15 +1100, "Jeckyl" wrote:

"Dr. Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:05:59 +1100, "Jeckyl" wrote:

"Koobee Wublee" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 7:54 pm, Randy Poe wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the
ground
clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for
relative
speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING
52us
per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms
ahead
of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?

Is Mr. Poe really as blind as Androcles has claimed you to be?

This is a classical case of the twin's paradox if you have not
realized it finally. It is absolutely impossible to resolve because
of the mathematics of the Lorentz transform.

It doesn't need to be 'resolved' as there is no real paradox involved ..
and
it is *due* to the Lorentz transforms .. they predict it. Get it right,
dumbo.

So what's the answer?

There is no question. Other than "can one explain the so-called twin
paradox result using relativity", and one certainly can (and via a number
of
approaches to the problem)

When the clocks are reunited, do they differ by 19ms or 13ms?

In the twins paradox? Once one has the parameters of the experiment, one
can calculate the difference in elapsed time for the two paths. I've seen
it done many times. Haven't you?

In the case of a GPS satellite returning to earth, the calculations are
quite complex and it would not be possible to say without a *lot* of
information what the difference would be .. I wouldn't like to attempt it
myself. That there would be some difference, we already know from other
experiments/observations.

You rally have no idea what you are talking about, do you.

Yes .. I do

The twins paradox is a thought experiment.

Yes .. it is

GPS clocks are real.

Yes .. they are

If the OC runs 19ms/y faster than the GC and the GC runs 13 ms/y slower
than
the OC, what is the difference in clock readings when the OC is brought
back to
Earth?

Way too complex to work out with the limited information you have given, if
you are talking about a difference in total elapsed time. But when it
returns to earth and is placed next to the ground clock, it would still be
running at the same rate as the ground clock (assuming the OC survived
re-entry ok) .. because both clocks have been keeping time corrrectly and
are unchanged, so there is no reason to expect otherwise.

"Ockham" wrote in message
k...

"snapdragon31" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 8:54 pm, Randy Poe wrote:
On Jan 29, 8:14 pm, HW@....(Dr. Henri Wilson) wrote:

According to relativists, GPS clocks GAIN 38us per day on the ground
clock.
That is due to two components, 45us for gravity and -7us for relative
speed.

Accordingly, an observer (OO) in GPS orbit would see the GC LOSING 52us
per
day.

After one year, the OO would calculate that the OC was about 19ms ahead
of the
GC.
However, the GO would calculate that his GC was only 13ms behind.

What happens when the clocks are reunited?
Who is right?

Two people drive different routes from city A to
city B. When they are reunited, one odometer reads
220 km and the other reads 230 km. Which one is
right?

- Randy

| According to relativity, both odometer readings are wrong. They do
| not represent the true distance of the routes travelled because of the
| length contraction effect.
| According to Newton's law, both odometer readings are right.

| The GPS clock paradox is a variation of the twin paradox, so no valid
| solution.

The paradox resides in the third postulate.

Androcles .. we've told you .. there is no third postulate

'the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals
the "time" it requires to travel from B to A' -- Albert Einstein

The time for a signal to get from the satellite to the receiver
does not equal the time for an uplink because the satellite has
moved, obviously.

Indeed .. SR and Einstein agrees with that. Time from A to B for light is
only the same as the time from B to A when A and B both at rest in some
frame of reference (ie they are not moving relative to each other)