The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot deny that, in the
eigenzeit of any relatively-stationary observer outside an imploding
star, the star's material *never* actually forms an event horizon, let
alone retreating within it. Yet they still try to eat their cake and
have it ...


"If you attempt to witness the black hole's formation, you'll see the
star collapse more and more slowly, never precisely reaching the
Schwarzchild radius.

"Now, this led early on to an image of a black hole [sic] as a strange
sort of suspended-animation object, a "frozen star" ... This, however,
is not what you'd see [because] as things get closer to the
["incipient"] event horizon, they also get *dimmer* ... and if one
considers that light is made up of discrete photons, the time of
escape of *the last photon* is actually finite, and not very large.
[An argument not relevant in principle, and in any case obviated by
imagining emitted EM radiation of arbitrarily-high frequency.] So
things would wink out as they got close, including the dying star, and
the name "black hole" is justified."

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...s/fall_in.html
(Physics/Relativity FAQ, "What happens to you if you fall into a black
hole?")


Science writer Paul Davies makes similar comments in his "Simplicio-
Sagacio dialogues" ("About Time", Penguin 1995, pp.119-20):-

"[Q:] But black holes are still a fiction as far as we in the universe
outside are concerned. The star that implodes to supposedly create
the black hole would also take an infinite amount of our time to
retreat inside its Schwarzchild radius. The black, supposedly empty
region would actually be occupied by the remnants of the star,
wouldn't it?

"[A:] In a sense that is correct. In fact, the Russians originally
disliked the term "black hole" for that very reason. ... Officially
they used the term "frozen stars," acknowledging that from a distance
time and motion are frozen at the Schwarzchild radius. ... But all
the properties of this collapsing star become very rapidly (typically
in milliseconds or less from the onset of collapse) indistinguishable
from a genuinely empty, already-formed black hole. ..."


Which - considering Prof. Davies's preceding discussion of black-hole
singularities, and possible gateways to other universes - is as big a
bullstatement as we are likely to encounter this side of transeternity.

"Seven Seas Oscirius" wrote in message oups.com...
The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot deny that, in the
eigenzeit of any relatively-stationary observer outside an imploding
star, the star's material *never* actually forms an event horizon, let
alone retreating within it. Yet they still try to eat their cake and
have it ...

The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot deny that, in the
eigenzeit of any relatively-moving observer moving away faster
than the speed of sound from an exploding firecracker, the
explosion's sound *never* actually reaches the ears of the
observer. Yet they still try to eat their cake and have it ...

Dirk Vdm

On Feb 12, 3:26 am, "The Immortal Dork" dirkvandemoor...@ThankS-NO-
SperM.hotmail.com wrote:
"Seven Seas Oscirius" wrote in ooglegroups.com...

The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot deny that, in the
eigenzeit of any relatively-stationary observer outside an imploding
star, the star's material *never* actually forms an event horizon, let
alone retreating within it. Yet they still try to eat their cake and
have it ...

The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot deny that, in the
eigenzeit of any relatively-moving observer moving away faster
than the speed of sound from an exploding firecracker, the
explosion's sound *never* actually reaches the ears of the
observer. Yet they still try to eat their cake and have it ...

Pity you didn't take the firecracker out of your ear before it went
off. Too busy twinkling your stars, I suppose.

Dear Seven Seas Oscirius:

"Seven Seas Oscirius" wrote in
message
oups.com...
The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot
deny that, in the eigenzeit of any relatively-stationary
observer outside an imploding star, the star's
material *never* actually forms an event horizon,

Actually no. The material is never *seen to cross* an event
horizon.

let alone retreating within it. Yet they still try to
eat their cake and have it ...

See there are objects in space that are more massive than neutron
stars, have the kind of above surface collisions of infalling
matter, but unlike neturon stars have no surface interactions of
the infalling material hitting anything.

David A. Smith

"Dirk Van de moortel"
wrote in message ...

The lunatics that run the relativity asylum .....
Dirk Vdm

[hanson]
.... Wow, you have seen the light, Dirk?!... finally!
What made you escape from the grip of those
Einstein Dingleberries? ... Congratulations!
ahahaha.... ahahahanson

"hanson" wrote in message news:XUbAh.1322$yg7.665@trnddc08...
"Dirk Van de moortel"
wrote in message ...

The lunatics that run the relativity asylum .....
Dirk Vdm

[hanson]
... Wow, you have seen the light, Dirk?!... finally!
What made you escape from the grip of those
Einstein Dingleberries? ... Congratulations!
ahahaha.... ahahahanson

Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
I'll keep that if I can stop laughing long enough.
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...Ahahaha....
hahahaha...

Aha!

On Feb 12, 5:06 am, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote:
Dear Seven Seas Oscirius:

"Seven Seas Oscirius" wrote in
ooglegroups.com...

The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot
deny that, in the eigenzeit of any relatively-stationary
observer outside an imploding star, the star's
material *never* actually forms an event horizon,

Actually no. The material is never *seen to cross* an event
horizon.

In those observers' eigenzeit, a black hole **never** forms.

Hm, is *this* what they mean by "Till Hell freezes over"?!

let alone retreating within it. Yet they still try to
eat their cake and have it ...

See

Might be hard to if the light's out.

On Feb 14, 2:49 am, "Seven Seas Oscirius"
wrote:
On Feb 12, 5:06 am, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote:

Dear SevenSeas Oscirius:

"SevenSeas Oscirius" wrote in
ooglegroups.com...

The lunatics that run the relativity asylum cannot
deny that, in the eigenzeit of any relatively-stationary
observer outside an imploding star, the star's
material *never* actually forms an event horizon,

Actually no. The material is never *seen to cross* an event
horizon.

In those observers' eigenzeit, a black hole **never** forms.


I.e., for this class of observers at least (since the Universe is of
finite age), a black hole will NEVER come into existence.