A Physics forum. Physics Banter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » Physics Banter forum » Physics Newsgroups » Physics - General Discussion
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Tags: , , , , ,

Lenny Susskind vs George Chapline on Black Holes



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 5th 05 posted to sci.physics.relativity,sci.math,sci.physics,sci.physics.particle,sci.skeptic
Jack Sarfatti
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,218
Default Lenny Susskind vs George Chapline on Black Holes


On Sep 5, 2005, at 9:28 AM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:

Lenny's densely mathematical book is not a popular book. It is
incomprehensible to the general reader and it is not easy going for the
professional theoretical physicist not in the sub-field. However, it has
moments of great clarity and if it is wrong, as George Chapline thinks,
it is brilliantly wrong. Certainly pieces of Lenny's thesis will
survive. So, to really see what the book is about, it's best to read the
end of the book first and then go back to the beginning. Lenny
emphasizes the key role on nonlocality (e.g. nonlocality of gravity
energy?) in black hole complementarity.

"In order to reconcile the equivalence principle with the rules of
quantum mechanics the rules of locality must be massively modified."

I like the idea of the blackhole as a string since I already published
in 1974 the explanation of the Regge slope alpha' (for strings)


J ~ alpha'E^2

alpha' ~ (1Gev)^-2

as rotating Kerr black hole Wheeler "micro with effective strong gravity
G* ~ 10^40G in Herbert Frohlich's "Collective Phenomena". Indeed, that's
why Abdus Salam invited me to ICTP Trieste, Italy 1973-74 (e.g. contact
Jagdish Mehra).

What will survive is the IR/UV duality. What about LIF/LNIF
complementarity? Intriguing. What is completely missing in Lenny's
theory is Vacuum ODLRO. For example, Lenny never considers a
Bose-Einstein condensate in the vacuum in which there is a macroscopic
eigenvalue of the first reduced density matrix. All eigenvalues must be
less than 1 in Lenny's theory. Second, Lenny used a positive energy
density to derive some of his key results when in fact negative zero
point energy density would describe dark matter. Third, Lenny's ADS
model has the wrong sign of the actually observed small post-inflation
cosmological constant. How fatal this is I do not know yet. Perhaps he
analytically continues to the DS model? That is ADS is "dark matter"
with negative zero point energy density and positive pressure. DS is
"dark energy" with positive zero point energy density and negative
pressure. Furthermore, Lenny's equation for p the power of t in the FRW
scale factor a(t) ~ t^p breaks down in the most important case, i.e. p
- infinity when w - -1, which is the case for zero point energy. One
nice idea is that the D3 brane of M-theory is the kind of 3+1 space-time
we live in with the 6 extra space-time dimensions as "scalar fields".
This fits well with Gennady Shipov's torsion field theory extension of
1915 GR. Indeed, if we interpret these scalar fields as vacuum ODLRO
Higgs-Goldstone fields associated with the local gauging of the Lorentz
group O(1,3) then the vacuum order parameter space is SU(2)xSU(2)
consistent with the Hedgehog anomaly centered at Sun seen in the TWO
NASA Pioneer Space Probes where a_g = - cH(t). All stars may have this
property, i.e. part of stellar formation? Maybe even galaxies have it?
That is vacuum ODLRO topological defects as seeds for early galaxy
formation explaining galactic halos as well?



hedgehog.gif


On Sep 1, 2005, at 1:53 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:



Comment 3
Lenny's book will not be comprehensible to the math-illiterate New Age
reader. He opens up with the math of black holes in different coordinate
representations nicely presented in a way that implicitly clearly shows
why Hal Puthoff's PV alternative to the black hole is not a good theory.
But you need to remember (or look up) your high school logarithms and
the trigonometry formula for the tangent of the half-angle to show from
eqs (1.1.2) to (1.1.4) that a signal from the black hole surface horizon
never reaches the distant observers. The Penrose diagram makes that
instantly obvious of course. Hal uses isotropic coordinates inside the
event horizon where they are not appropriate. He says he can do that
because his exponential metric does not have an event horizon. But in
that case his solution does not obey Einstein's vacuum GR equation Ruv =
0. Therefore, PV theory conflicts with GR. Indeed, PV theory is not
consistent with Diff(4) tensors and therefore, it violates the
equivalence principle. In spite of that Hal Puthoff claims he is not
offering a theory different from GR but only an "engineer's" way to do
it. This, of course, is self-contradictory. Note that in George
Chapline's "dark star" theory there is dark energy behind the event
horizon, i.e. not Ruv = 0, but the same equation I use

Guv + /\zpfguv = 0

We do seem to need Gennady Shipov's torsion field beyond 1915 GR to allow

/\zpf^,v =/= 0 at the event horizon boundary because the Bianchi
identities without torsion demand /\zpf^,v = 0.

On Aug 31, 2005, at 10:15 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:



Comment 2

Lenny: "Eventually the black hole must completely evaporate. Hawking
then raised the question of what becomes of the quantum correlations
between matter outside the black hole and matter that disappears behind
the horizon. ... Hawking then made arguments that there is no way,
consistent with causality, for the correlations to be carried by the
outgoing evaporation products."

Jack: So much the worse for causality, which here means no space-like
influences outside the local light cones. Bell's theorem shows that such
space-like influences are needed and they are locally random in
micro-quantum theory consistent with the blackbody radiation.

Lenny: "Thus, according to Hawking, the existence of black holes
inevitably causes a loss of quantum coherence and breakdown of one of
the basic principles of quantum mechanics - the evolution of pure states
into pure states."

Jack: So much the worse for micro-quantum mechanics. It's time to
slaughter that Sacred Cow. Global special relativity of 1905 is violated
by the necessity of gravity and inertia in local general relativity of
1915 where it is relegated to a purely local tangent space by the
equivalence principle. In the same way micro-quantum mechanics is not
complete, but merely corresponds to nonlocally entangled small
fluctuations about the stiff macro-quantum vacuum ODLRO coherent order
parameter that provides the local fabric of space-time via

B = (hG/c^3)^1/2d(argVacuum ODLRO).

Lenny: "Hawking further argued that once the loss of quantum coherence
is permitted in black hole evaporation, it becomes compulsory in all
processes involving the Planck scale. The world would behave as if it
were in a noisy environment which continuously leads to a loss of
coherence. The trouble with this is that there is no known way to
destroy coherence without at the same time violating energy conservation
by heating the world."

Jack: I need to see the math of the above argument. Why does not the
expansion of the universe cool down this alleged heating effect? Also
total energy is not necessarily conserved in curved space-time because
of the breakdown of time translation symmetry. Presumably the book will
explain this argument in more detail. Lenny wants to hold on to
micro-quantum unitarity at all costs and I think this is the basic error
in his thesis, but I could be wrong. The macro-quantum vacuum ODLRO
order parameter does not obey a unitary time evolution. You cannot think
of |psi|^2 as a Born quantum probability density like you can for
micro-quantum wave functions.

Indeed the space integral of |psi(x)|^2 need not be a constant of the
motion at all. For example, you have a pot of superfluid helium at
almost T = 0 at t = 0 and then you slowly heat it. As you heat the
superfluid it turns to normal fluid completely disappearing at the
lambda point. In the case of vacuum ODLRO the "normal fluid" is the dark
energy!

On Aug 31, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:




"Black Holes, Information and the String Theory Revolution: The
Holographic Universe"

Comment 1

Lenny: "The paradox was discovered by Jacob Bekenstein and turned into a
serious crisis by Stephen Hawking. ... Bekenstein realized that if the
second law of thermodynamics was not to be violated in the presence of a
black hole, the black hole must possess an intrinsic entropy. ... How
and why a classical solution of field equations should be endowed with
thermodynamical attributes has remained obscure."

Jack: The black hole is a property of Einstein's vacuum equation

Ruv = 0

However, this equation is a c-number emergent field theory from vacuum
ODLRO. George Chapline, Jr and I have both arrived at this general idea
quite independently. Let the vacuum ODLRO order parameter be

psi = |psi|e^iargpsi

suppress internal symmetry indices, but think of SU(2)hypercharge that
has a neutral VEV in the standard model (evidence from NASA Pioneer
anomaly a_g = -cH(t) as a hedgehog topological defect centered at Sun).

Let the Einstein-Cartan 1-form be

e = 1 + B

My ansatz is

B = (hG/c^3)^1/2d(argtheta)

with "string" branch cuts in argtheta

Therefore, there is no gravity and inertia when h - 0 and c - infinity
even when G =/= 0. There is still some residual "normal fluid"
fluctuations around the stiff vacuum order parameter psi that obeys the
rules of micro-quantum theory as given by Lenny. The ratio of normal to
superfluid obviously has a temperature parameter T. Therefore, Lenny's
question is answered.

to be continued















Ads
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Black holes CWatters Physics - General Discussion 7 July 27th 05 04:39 AM
Black Holes Do Not Exist! Nightbat Black Comet Explained Same LongAgo nightbat Physics - General Discussion 0 May 20th 05 10:08 PM
Black Holes nightbat Physics - General Discussion 1 April 29th 05 03:17 PM
Black Holes mike3 Physics - General Discussion 5 December 13th 04 09:37 AM
Brian Greene's colleague Peter Woit attacks Lenny Susskind on stringtheory Jack Sarfatti Physics - General Discussion 1 June 22nd 04 03:31 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
Copyright ©2004-2008 Physics Banter, part of the NewsgroupBanter project.
The comments are property of their posters.
Loans - Advertising - Car Loans - Vinos tintos - Mortgage Calculator