Did you come accross a calculation of the entropy of
pre-big-bang medium? E.g. the stuff that exploded?
There have been calculations of the entropy of the
black-hole surface, so why not the big-bang-medium?

I know that the first pico-seconds of the big-bang
have been analysed and modeled in quite some detail by
cosmologists, in particular based on the background radiation
data. But is it possible to trace the entropy of this first pico-second
stuff down to the moment zero?
Besides, another related topic - is the entropy of the universe
increasing as it expands? What is the increase rate? Is there any
calulations of the entropy of present universe? This again comes down to
tracing this entropy increase and probably extrapolating it back to time
zero.

Regards,
Evgenij

yes and no. The number of possible quantum mechanical states is
increasing with volume. So the entropy of the Universe is increasing,
however it is not increasing as fast as the maximum entropy.

This is one of the quirks of expansion. In fact in the early Universe
the entropy was pretty near its maximum as it was at a uniform
temperature. With expansion matter formed into clumps and temperature
differences emerged.

My model of the universe guesses that most likely the process that led
to the BB of our universe is a repeatable one which could create new
universes out of old ones or new ones where none exist at the time.

If the basis of such a process is entropy, universal total equilibrium
then ends in a BB where order is perfect and so entropy begins anew.
The question is, just how "perfect" does order have to be, and why
would that come out of an explosion? Doesn't seem likely.

Entropy, I would guess, would relate closer to a steady-state theory
than to the BBT, as far as it becoming perfect order out of perfect
chaos.

That's not impossible, and maybe that's the basis of Man's insistence
that gods exist, although that could be pure intuition. An instinctive
belief like that would have no basis for existing in our brains since
there is no actual evidence of any gods who have been proposed to
exist. Intuition is the state of being or the ability to be aware of
something without perceiving it.

Man is evolved to the point where we can define intuition, but not to
where we can call it an everyday experience. Later, if we survive our
aggressive nature, we may evolve to where our intuitive consensus is
that gods exist. Even then, however, it is pure intuition having no
basis in fact, so their existence then will be still unproven.

Intuition is a characteristic of human beings and maybe of other
animals too. It has to do with our senses and how well our brains can
interpret what we sense. But "sensing" something without using any of
our senses may just be a function of our self-preservation drive, or of
a "readiness state" for using our senses. Intuition is not one of our
senses, by definition, although many claim that it is or can be for
some people. All of which means that we can know by "intuition" that
gods exist, as so many are convinced, but that is not the result of
sensual perception at all, only a human characteristic which convinces
us that gods exist.

Evgenij Barsukov wrote:
Did you come accross a calculation of the entropy of
pre-big-bang medium? E.g. the stuff that exploded?
There have been calculations of the entropy of the
black-hole surface, so why not the big-bang-medium?

It's undefined.

TomGee wrote:
My model of the universe guesses that most likely the process that led
to the BB of our universe is a repeatable one which could create new
universes out of old ones or new ones where none exist at the time.

If the basis of such a process is entropy, universal total equilibrium
then ends in a BB where order is perfect and so entropy begins anew.
The question is, just how "perfect" does order have to be, and why
would that come out of an explosion? Doesn't seem likely.

Entropy, I would guess, would relate closer to a steady-state theory
than to the BBT, as far as it becoming perfect order out of perfect
chaos.

That's not impossible, and maybe that's the basis of Man's insistence
that gods exist, although that could be pure intuition. An instinctive
belief like that would have no basis for existing in our brains since
there is no actual evidence of any gods who have been proposed to
exist. Intuition is the state of being or the ability to be aware of
something without perceiving it.

People are pretty good at intuitively extrapolating processes to their
beginning (or end), as well as at noticing tendencies and patterns. So
indeed if entropy increase in any spontaneous processes is a fundamental
law of nature (and this law could hardly be overlooked), it should be
extrapolatable to the big-bang, which makes the "pre big-bang" medium an
object with lowest entropy (e.g. highest order, lowest degrees of
freedom) object that this Universe will ever know.
God was always assigned qualities as "infinitely complex" which
does intuitivily associate with "highest degree of order".

And, in a way, this object did create everythings (so the "creator"
analogy also applies). Well, not so much "created" as "originated" -
e.g. everythig else come into being as decomposition products of this
object (which obviously decomposes not in a simple staightforward way
due to its initial complexity). Well, we do not even have to call it
decomposition, we can call it "development" but as overal effect is
entropy increase it does intuitively sounds like overal "loss of order".

Just like whirpooles have lower entropy than outside flow, and yet
they help to accelerate the flow, during decomposition objects, "entropy
acceleration catalysts" can arise that themself have lower entropy
than suroundings, but they accelerate overal entropy increase. Black
holes for example, while having themselfes lower entropy than environment,
are the largest catalysts of entropy increase because ~40% of matter
falling into them is converted into light. Same probably applyes to
other "clumping" processes - lose some entropy here to gain more entropy
somewhere else.
Anyway, while this does not help the creationists in any way, as
there are planty of mechanisms of building complex "clumps" (inlcuding
such low-entropic once as "Life") even though the entropy in overal
increases out of some highly low-entropic (zero entropic?) starting
point, the consideration of big bang medium as somewhat equivalent to
God gives a bit of a nod to a good intuition of humanity.

Some important properties usually attributed to God however are
missing. In particular, there is nothing "personal" about the thing we
are discussing. Than, pre gig-bang mediums is not self-sufficient (e.g.
it has to be pre-existing and requires explanation of where it came
from). A bit to that is discussed in the other thread:
here is THE answer Why is there something rather than nothing?

Regards,
Evgenij


Man is evolved to the point where we can define intuition, but not to
where we can call it an everyday experience. Later, if we survive our
aggressive nature, we may evolve to where our intuitive consensus is
that gods exist. Even then, however, it is pure intuition having no
basis in fact, so their existence then will be still unproven.

Intuition is a characteristic of human beings and maybe of other
animals too. It has to do with our senses and how well our brains can
interpret what we sense. But "sensing" something without using any of
our senses may just be a function of our self-preservation drive, or of
a "readiness state" for using our senses. Intuition is not one of our
senses, by definition, although many claim that it is or can be for
some people. All of which means that we can know by "intuition" that
gods exist, as so many are convinced, but that is not the result of
sensual perception at all, only a human characteristic which convinces
us that gods exist.

Black holes for example, while having themselves lower entropy than environment,
are the largest catalysts of entropy increase because ~40% of matter
falling into them is converted into light.

I may be a little bit pedantic but do you mean light or gravitational
waves. If a mass falls into a static BH 50% of the mass is converted
into gravitational waves and 50% of it increases the mass of the BH.

A spinning BH is extremely interesting. Here up to 80% of rest mass
energy may go into gas jets. This is the main energy source of abnormal
galaxies.

Ian Parker wrote:
Black holes for example, while having themselves lower entropy than environment,
are the largest catalysts of entropy increase because ~40% of matter
falling into them is converted into light.


I may be a little bit pedantic but do you mean light or gravitational
waves. If a mass falls into a static BH 50% of the mass is converted
into gravitational waves and 50% of it increases the mass of the BH.

A spinning BH is extremely interesting. Here up to 80% of rest mass
energy may go into gas jets. This is the main energy source of abnormal
galaxies.

I am refering to UV radiation caused by acceleration of charged
particles. Because the matter falling in the black hole stuff is
accelerated to near speed of light, this acceleration creates radiation
(of cause, that is before matter reaches the horizont of no return).
That is the reason why black holes are actually very bright in UV
and that is how they are commonly found.
This is just the basic idea, maybe specialists here can provide a
more detailed description of black hole UV brightness mechanism.

Regards,
Evgenij