Wave/Particle nature of light question.

"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
. ..

"Androcles" wrote in message
...

"dlzc" wrote in message
...
Hello Androcles:

On Sep 24, 3:14 pm, "Androcles" wrote:
"dlzc" wrote in message
...
...
So how did you imagine that had anything to do
with wave particle duality?

Of course it does. Corks on waving water merely
bob up and down, surf riders come into the shore.
When does a cork become a surf rider?

Perhaps you failed to notice that multiple corks tend to agglomerate,
or disperse also. They also end up on the shore. Your similes aren't
doing you much good here.

I am asking the OP how his question relates to particle duality, since
the Crookes radiometer works on heating gasses in the envelope (and he
knew this). Can you let him answer?

David A. Smith

============================================
I'm not preventing him from answering, Smiffy. I asked YOU
at what point a cork becomes a surf rider.
The answer is when the water gets shallower, otherwise it drifts
with the tide. In other words ocean waves are essentially standing
waves except near shorelines, and the direction of energy transfer
is toward the shore -- even for an island.
Now... does a Crooke's radiometer turn if you evacuate the bulb?





In physic class we were taught light was a wave but sometimes behaved as a
particle.


Yes, but Nature doesn't always agree with what you were taught - especially
what your tutor may read to you from a text book. Science has always been
full of surprises and teachers are not scientists... or they wouldn't be
teachers.
Consider a spinning pellet fired from a spud gun:
http://www.spudtech.com/images/products/sch80rifled.jpg
Seen sideways on, the helix is a wave:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonde.../AC/Photon.gif
That is a wave. Spinning potatoes have wave/particle duality.

We covered much material about the wave nature of light but I don't
remember the
particle nature of light ever being discussed.

Then you should discuss it. You'll be surprised what it will reveal.

I assumed the light windmill worked because of the heating effect on the
dark surface.

Never assume anything. Assume makes an ass- out of -u- and -me, and
I'm no ass.

After I was informed the device I was referring to is called Crookes
radiometer I was able to google it and find out light was
in fact behaving as a particle in that by bouncing off the mirrored
surface it imparted a force.
The heating effect explaination however was not wrong though. If you have
an incomplete vacuum in the bulb, the force repulsion of
air molecules off the hot surface (dark side) will exceed photon
impingment on the mirrored side.

What happens if you have a complete vacuum?


As to my subject heading "Wave/Particle nature of light", wouldn't this be
an example of where light is acting like a particle?

Light always acts as a particle. It travels in straight beams, doesn't
spread
like waves on water or sound waves:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonde...ave/ripple.gif

You wouldn't say a shower of rain was a wave, would you?
Yet if the raindrops are spinning then they trace a wave.
Is this particle a wave?
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/SHO/damp.html

It's a wave in TIME, it's not a wave in space.

Dear Gary Helfert:

"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
. ..
....
In physic class we were taught light was a wave
but sometimes behaved as a particle. We
covered much material about the wave nature of
light but I don't remember the particle nature of
light ever being discussed. I assumed the light
windmill worked because of the heating effect
on the dark surface.

It doesn't have to. As I said to you, lasers are used to lift
and position tiny latex balls. Additionally, photons are used to
alter the trajectory of charged particles.

After I was informed the device I was referring
to is called Crookes radiometer I was able to
google it and find out light was in fact behaving
as a particle in that by bouncing off the mirrored
surface it imparted a force.

Well, that is the first blush theory. But I don't find that
anyone has made such a device with essentially no gas, and got it
to turn in the direction necessary to support particle theory.

The heating effect explaination however was
not wrong though. If you have an incomplete
vacuum in the bulb, the force repulsion

Not "repulsion", but "rebound" or "conservation of momentum".

of air molecules off the hot surface (dark side)
will exceed photon impingment on the mirrored
side. As to my subject heading "Wave/Particle
nature of light", wouldn't this be an example of
where light is acting like a particle?

Not when it is only heating a surface. Try Googling
"photoelectric effect"

It is better not to consider light as having either property /
behavior, since those "results" are a function of the test you
use to detect light. Better to realize that light is discrete
(particle model), and in groups Maxwell's equations (wave model)
work very well. Macroscopic beings like us have trouble trying
to impress "like ocean waves" or "like billiard balls" on
something like a quantum of light. Because Nature stands by
laughing at us...

David A. Smith

"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
. ..

"Androcles" wrote in message
...

"dlzc" wrote in message
...
Hello Androcles:

On Sep 24, 3:14 pm, "Androcles" wrote:
"dlzc" wrote in message
...
...
So how did you imagine that had anything to do
with wave particle duality?

Of course it does. Corks on waving water merely
bob up and down, surf riders come into the shore.
When does a cork become a surf rider?

Perhaps you failed to notice that multiple corks tend to agglomerate,
or disperse also. They also end up on the shore. Your similes aren't
doing you much good here.

I am asking the OP how his question relates to particle duality, since
the Crookes radiometer works on heating gasses in the envelope (and he
knew this). Can you let him answer?

David A. Smith

============================================
I'm not preventing him from answering, Smiffy. I asked YOU
at what point a cork becomes a surf rider.
The answer is when the water gets shallower, otherwise it drifts
with the tide. In other words ocean waves are essentially standing
waves except near shorelines, and the direction of energy transfer
is toward the shore -- even for an island.
Now... does a Crooke's radiometer turn if you evacuate the bulb?





In physic class we were taught light was a wave but sometimes behaved as a
particle.
We covered much material about the wave nature of light but I don't
remember the
particle nature of light ever being discussed.
I assumed the light windmill worked because of the heating effect on the
dark surface.
After I was informed the device I was referring to is called Crookes
radiometer I was able to google it and find out light was
in fact behaving as a particle in that by bouncing off the mirrored
surface it imparted a force.
The heating effect explaination however was not wrong though. If you have
an incomplete vacuum in the bulb, the force repulsion of
air molecules off the hot surface (dark side) will exceed photon
impingment on the mirrored side.
As to my subject heading "Wave/Particle nature of light", wouldn't this be
an example of where light is acting like a particle?

I don't want the discussion to get too theoretical. The last two lines of
the first paragraph of link http://science.howstuffworks.com/question239.htm
states in a complete vacuum Crooks Radiometer would rotate with mirrored
surface moving away from the incoming beam. At this point I am just curious
how much pressure are we talking about? How does it compare to the solar
wind? If the light emitted from the sun were blocked out, would the earth
start drifting into a lower orbit around the sun? Any ideas here? I would
also like to thank you all for taking the time to try and answer my
questions.

Dear Gary Helfert:

"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
...
....
I don't want the discussion to get too theoretical. The
last two lines of the first paragraph of link
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question239.htm
states in a complete vacuum Crooks Radiometer would
rotate with mirrored surface moving away from the
incoming beam. At this point I am just curious how
much pressure are we talking about?

At least one order of magnitude less than heated gas.

How does it compare to the solar wind?

Smaller.

If the light emitted from the sun were blocked out,
would the earth start drifting into a lower orbit
around the sun?

Not likely. Mouse farts don't move the Earth much.

David A. Smith

"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
...

"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
. ..

"Androcles" wrote in message
...

"dlzc" wrote in message
...
Hello Androcles:

On Sep 24, 3:14 pm, "Androcles" wrote:
"dlzc" wrote in message
...
...
So how did you imagine that had anything to do
with wave particle duality?

Of course it does. Corks on waving water merely
bob up and down, surf riders come into the shore.
When does a cork become a surf rider?

Perhaps you failed to notice that multiple corks tend to agglomerate,
or disperse also. They also end up on the shore. Your similes aren't
doing you much good here.

I am asking the OP how his question relates to particle duality, since
the Crookes radiometer works on heating gasses in the envelope (and he
knew this). Can you let him answer?

David A. Smith

============================================
I'm not preventing him from answering, Smiffy. I asked YOU
at what point a cork becomes a surf rider.
The answer is when the water gets shallower, otherwise it drifts
with the tide. In other words ocean waves are essentially standing
waves except near shorelines, and the direction of energy transfer
is toward the shore -- even for an island.
Now... does a Crooke's radiometer turn if you evacuate the bulb?





In physic class we were taught light was a wave but sometimes behaved as
a particle.
We covered much material about the wave nature of light but I don't
remember the
particle nature of light ever being discussed.
I assumed the light windmill worked because of the heating effect on the
dark surface.
After I was informed the device I was referring to is called Crookes
radiometer I was able to google it and find out light was
in fact behaving as a particle in that by bouncing off the mirrored
surface it imparted a force.
The heating effect explaination however was not wrong though. If you have
an incomplete vacuum in the bulb, the force repulsion of
air molecules off the hot surface (dark side) will exceed photon
impingment on the mirrored side.
As to my subject heading "Wave/Particle nature of light", wouldn't this
be an example of where light is acting like a particle?

I don't want the discussion to get too theoretical. The last two lines of
the first paragraph of link
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question239.htm states in a complete
vacuum Crooks Radiometer would rotate with mirrored surface moving away
from the incoming beam. At this point I am just curious how much pressure
are we talking about? How does it compare to the solar wind? If the light
emitted from the sun were blocked out, would the earth start drifting
into a lower orbit around the sun?

No. Sunlight is driving it to a higher orbit, about an inch every trillion
years.
It is heating the atmosphere on the day side which is boiling away into
space
like a Crooke's radiometer without the vacuum.
Hopefully we'll get hit by a comet on the night side and that will top up
the
material lost and push the Earth back into its proper orbit. It may wipe out
all life, but that's not important, there is no intelligent life here
anyway.


Any ideas here? I would also like to thank you all for taking the time to
try and answer my questions.

How much pressure do you get he
http://tinyurl.com/4to6xa
and he
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_1...2382eH65l2.jpg
and he
http://www.masterplumber.net/no_heat...oseupgauge.jpg
??
Pressure isn't really the right term to use in a physics newsgroup, is it?

Hello Androcles:

On Sep 25, 11:00*am, "Androcles" wrote:
"dlzc" wrote in message
...
....
Perhaps you failed to notice that multiple corks
tend to agglomerate, or disperse also. *They also
end up on the shore. *Your similes aren't doing
you much good here.

============================================
I asked YOU at what point a cork becomes a
surf rider. The answer is when the water gets
shallower, otherwise it drifts with the tide. In
other words ocean waves are essentially
standing waves except near shorelines, and
the direction of energy transfer is toward the
shore -- even for an island.

Your word "essentialy" is key. The cork is *always* a surfer, but
lack of return waves tend to displace a cork towards that which is
dissipating momentum. And/or away from that which is "radiating"
momentum (ship's prow for example).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1996553.ece

Now... does a Crooke's radiometer turn if you
evacuate the bulb?

Damned good question. It should... does the "angular momentum" of an
atom orbital change translate directly to the expected linear momentum
of a single photon. Like someone releasing an olympic hammer they are
swinging around and around... the hammer et al travels largely in a
straight line (but it is still trying to rotate "slowly" about its
center of mass at the final rate it was being swung 'round).

David A. Smith

"dlzc" wrote in message
...
Hello Androcles:

On Sep 25, 11:00 am, "Androcles" wrote:
"dlzc" wrote in message
...
....
Perhaps you failed to notice that multiple corks
tend to agglomerate, or disperse also. They also
end up on the shore. Your similes aren't doing
you much good here.

============================================
I asked YOU at what point a cork becomes a
surf rider. The answer is when the water gets
shallower, otherwise it drifts with the tide. In
other words ocean waves are essentially
standing waves except near shorelines, and
the direction of energy transfer is toward the
shore -- even for an island.

Your word "essentialy" is key.
==================================
I didn't use it. "Essentially" has two ells.
==================================

The cork is *always* a surfer, but
lack of return waves tend to displace a cork towards that which is
dissipating momentum.

===================================
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonde...andingWave.gif
What momentum?


http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonde...ave/ripple.gif
Is the centre a singularity?

====================================

And/or away from that which is "radiating"
momentum (ship's prow for example).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1996553.ece
=======================================
Drift as a result of current or tide was considered in an earlier post.
Your exceptions aren't doing you much good here.

=======================================

Now... does a Crooke's radiometer turn if you
evacuate the bulb?

Damned good question.
=========================================
All my questions are damned good. They are designed to
make sheep (that only believe what they are told) to think.
This is, after all, a science newsgroup.
=========================================



It should... does the "angular momentum" of an
atom orbital change translate directly to the expected linear momentum
of a single photon. Like someone releasing an olympic hammer they are
swinging around and around... the hammer et al travels largely in a
straight line (but it is still trying to rotate "slowly" about its
center of mass at the final rate it was being swung 'round).

David A. Smith
===========================================
"They suggest rather that, as has already been shown to the first order of
small quantities, the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid
for all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good."
-- Albert ****wit Einstein.
How come the clown contradicts himself?

Hello Androcles:

On Sep 25, 10:33*pm, "Androcles" wrote:
"Gary Helfert" wrote in message

...
"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
...
....
How does it compare to the solar wind? If the light
emitted from the sun were blocked out, *would the
earth start drifting into a lower orbit around the sun?

No. Sunlight is driving it to a higher orbit, about an
inch every trillion years.

I would offer that the solar wind tends to circularize our orbit at
some nominal value, and when it ceases (or lessens as it is is now) I
would expect the ellipticity to increase by some amount.
Additionally, we are net accumulating mass from the solar wind (unless
you have a citation to the contrary), and accumulating a tad more on
the pole facing into our orbital motion, which would tend to *lower*
our orbit.

David A. Smith

"dlzc" wrote in message
...
Hello Androcles:

On Sep 25, 10:33 pm, "Androcles" wrote:
"Gary Helfert" wrote in message

...
"Gary Helfert" wrote in message
...
....
How does it compare to the solar wind? If the light
emitted from the sun were blocked out, would the
earth start drifting into a lower orbit around the sun?

No. Sunlight is driving it to a higher orbit, about an
inch every trillion years.

I would offer
========================

No thanks, you snipping *******.