Why accelerators cannot push electrons travel at speed more than "c

Partical Accelerators use electro magnetic waves to accelerate
particals using their charge.

Since electro magnetic waves travel at speed "c" the max speed they
can force a charged partical is c.

Say there is a pipe of water and a ball in inside. And water is
travelling at 2 m/ s speed. How fast the ball can be moved.

1. initially ball is at rest.

2. slowly its speed is 1.999 m / s.

3. We keep increasing the flow of water at speed 2 m / s Then speed of
Ball reaches 1.999999 m /.s

But never the Ball will attacin 2 m / s Why?

Because 2 m/ s is the speed of water and due to viscosity and other
factors Ball can never travel faster than 2 m / s.

So you now understand why Partical Accelerators which uses electro
magnetic waves can never have a partical travel at speed c.

Bye
Sanny

Be Intelligent: http://www.GetClub.com

"Geneva, 25 August 2008. CERN has today announced the success of the
second and final test of the Large Hadron Collider’s beam
synchronization systems which will allow the LHC operations team to
inject the first beam into the LHC.

Friday evening 22 August, a single bunch of a few particles travelled
down the transfer line from the Super Proton Synchrotron (SPS)
accelerator to the LHC. After a period of optimization, one bunch was
kicked up from the transfer line into the LHC beam pipe and steered
counter-clockwise about 3 kilometres around the LHC.

“Thanks to a fantastic team, both the clock-wise and counter-clockwise
tests went without a hitch. We look forward to a resounding success
when we make our first attempt to send a beam all the way around the
LHC,” said Lyn Evans, LHC Project Leader.

Both the counter-clockwise and clockwise tests are part of the
preparations to ready the LHC, the world’s most powerful particle
accelerator, for the eventual acceleration and collision of two beams
at an energy of 5 TeV per beam. This unprecedented event is foreseen
to take place by end 2008.

Upcoming events marking LHC start-up
10 September: The first attempt to circulate a beam in the LHC will be
made on 10 September at the injection energy of 450 GeV (0.45 TeV).
This historical event will be webcast through http://webcast.cern.ch,
and distributed through the Eurovision network. See http://www.cern.ch/lhc-first-beam
for further details.

3 October: CERN will host the LHC Grid Fest, a celebration of the LHC
Computing Grid, a global computing grid designed to handle 15 million
gigabytes of LHC-related data every year. The day will feature
presentations, demonstrations, tours of the CERN Computer Centre and
more. See http://www.cern.ch/lcg/lhcgridfest for more details."

http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/Welcome.html

Sanny wrote in message

Partical Accelerators use electro magnetic waves to accelerate
particals using their charge.

Since electro magnetic waves travel at speed "c" the max speed they
can force a charged partical is c.

Say there is a pipe of water and a ball in inside. And water is
travelling at 2 m/ s speed. How fast the ball can be moved.

1. initially ball is at rest.

2. slowly its speed is 1.999 m / s.

3. We keep increasing the flow of water at speed 2 m / s Then speed of
Ball reaches 1.999999 m /.s

But never the Ball will attacin 2 m / s Why?

Because 2 m/ s is the speed of water and due to viscosity and other
factors Ball can never travel faster than 2 m / s.

So you now understand why Partical Accelerators which uses electro
magnetic waves can never have a partical travel at speed c.



A 1 kg ball is lying still on the ground.
We use a 10 kg ball with velocity 1 m/s to collide elastically
with the 1 kg ball.
Since the heavy ball travels at speed 1 m/s, the max speed the
light ball can attain is 1 m/s ?

Alas, the small ball will move at velocity 1.8 m/s, and the max
speed it could attain when the large ball would go faster and
faster, is just under 2 m/s.

So you now you *fail* to "understand why Partical Accelerators
which uses electro magnetic waves can never have a partical
travel at speed c".

Dirk Vdm

On Sep 2, 11:36*am, "Dirk Van de moortel"
wrote:
Sanny wrote in message

*



Partical Accelerators use electro magnetic waves to accelerate
particals using their charge.

Since electro magnetic waves travel at speed "c" the max speed they
can force a charged partical is c.

Say there is a pipe of water and a ball in inside. And water is
travelling at 2 m/ s speed. How fast the ball can be moved.

1. initially ball is at rest.

2. slowly its speed is 1.999 m / s.

3. We keep increasing the flow of water at speed 2 m / s Then speed of
Ball reaches 1.999999 m /.s

But never the Ball will attacin 2 m / s Why?

Because 2 m/ s is the speed of water and due to viscosity and other
factors Ball can never travel faster than 2 m / s.

So you now understand why Partical Accelerators which uses electro
magnetic waves can never have a partical travel at speed c.

A 1 kg ball is lying still on the ground.
We use a 10 kg ball with velocity 1 m/s to collide elastically
with the 1 kg ball.
Since the heavy ball travels at speed 1 m/s, the max speed the
light ball can attain is 1 m/s ?

according to conservation of momentum
the small ball will travel after collision 10 M/s
(it is small velocities .......!!)
you picked up a wrong example



Alas, the small ball will move at velocity 1.8 m/s, and the max
speed it could attain when the large ball would go faster and
faster, is just under 2 m/s.

why ?? because mass inflates ??

So you now you *fail* to "understand why Partical Accelerators
which uses electro magnetic waves can never have a partical
travel at speed c".

why ?? because mass inflates ??
do you think you understand it ???!!!


Dirk Vdm
i explained it many times

Y.Porat
-------------------------------

On Sep 2, 8:32*am, Sanny wrote:
Partical Accelerators use electro magnetic waves to accelerate
particals using their charge.

Since electro magnetic waves travel at speed "c" the max speed they
can force a charged partical is c.

Say there is a pipe of water and a ball in inside. And water is
travelling at 2 m/ s speed. How fast the ball can be moved.

1. initially ball is at rest.

2. slowly its speed is 1.999 m / s.

3. We keep increasing the flow of water at speed 2 m / s Then speed of
Ball reaches 1.999999 m /.s

But never the Ball will attacin 2 m / s Why?

Because 2 m/ s is the speed of water and due to viscosity and other
factors Ball can never travel faster than 2 m / s.

So you now understand why Partical Accelerators which uses electro
magnetic waves can never have a partical travel at speed c.

Bye
Sanny

Be Intelligent:http://www.GetClub.com

What if the ball had a little engine that allowed it to travel at .2 m/
s when it reached 1.999999999 and you switched on the engine, how
fast would the ball go? :-)

The difference with the speed of light is that the amount of energy
required to accelerate a mass (as well as the mass itself) increases
exponentially as you approach it (the speed of light). At, or very
close to the speed of light, matter itself turns to light. Does your
ball turn to water at the speed of water?

On Sep 2, 8:32*am, Sanny wrote:
Partical Accelerators use electro magnetic waves to accelerate
particals using their charge.

Since electro magnetic waves travel at speed "c" the max speed they
can force a charged partical is c.

Say there is a pipe of water and a ball in inside. And water is
travelling at 2 m/ s speed. How fast the ball can be moved.

1. initially ball is at rest.

2. slowly its speed is 1.999 m / s.

3. We keep increasing the flow of water at speed 2 m / s Then speed of
Ball reaches 1.999999 m /.s

But never the Ball will attacin 2 m / s Why?

Because 2 m/ s is the speed of water and due to viscosity and other
factors Ball can never travel faster than 2 m / s.

So you now understand why Partical Accelerators which uses electro
magnetic waves can never have a partical travel at speed c.

Bye
Sanny

Be Intelligent:http://www.GetClub.com

I think you might be hinting at the Lorenttz transformation for
velocity which is

v_x' = \frac{v_x - u}{1 - \frac{uv_x}{c^2}}

u is the speed of light = c,

which resolves as

v_x' = \frac{-c - c}{1 - \frac{c^2}{c^2}}

v_x' = \frac{-2c}{1 - 1}

v_x' = \frac{-2c}{0} which is mathematiclly invalid

On Sep 2, 12:04*pm, "Y.Porat" wrote:

why ?? because mass inflates ??

Aren't you thinking of a balloon?

do you think you understand it ???!!!

No

i explained it many times

Try one more time with feeling

Sanny wrote:
Partical Accelerators use electro magnetic waves to accelerate
particals using their charge.
Since electro magnetic waves travel at speed "c" the max speed they
can force a charged partical is c.

No. You make unwarranted assumptions and conclusions.


First, Van de Graff used a d.c. potential to accelerate electrons to
relativistic speeds. As the potential is d.c. your claims don't apply,
but the electrons never exceeded speed c.

Second, while it is true that most modern accelerators use RF fields to
accelerate the particles, they are designed so the RF power is a
standing wave, carefully timed such that the particles enter the RF
cavity when the E field is already present so the particle is
accelerated. It should be obvious that this is the most efficient way to
accelerate particles (why put them into the cavities when there is no E
field present or it is aimed the wrong way?).


[example of ball in water]

This is a very bad example, unrelated to the issue at hand. With the
water traveling 2.000000 m/s, the ball can also travel 2.000000 m/s.
Indeed, due to thermal and density fluctuations in the water, it can
occasionally travel faster than 2.000000 m/s. And all bets are off for
turbulent flow in which a small enough ball could travel several times 2
m/s.... No analogous effects are observed for charged particles and EM
fields -- the EM field is NOT a fluid.


Tom Roberts

Partical Accelerators use electro magnetic waves to accelerate
particals using their charge.
Since electro magnetic waves travel at speed "c" the max speed they
can force a charged partical is c.

No. You make unwarranted assumptions and conclusions.

First, Van de Graff used a d.c. potential to accelerate electrons to
relativistic speeds. As the potential is d.c. your claims don't apply,
but the electrons never exceeded speed c.

Even when in DC the Electric Field travels at speed of light "c".
Electric field speed is always "c".

Second, while it is true that most modern accelerators use RF fields to
accelerate the particles, they are designed so the RF power is a
standing wave, carefully timed such that the particles enter the RF
cavity when the E field is already present so the particle is
accelerated. It should be obvious that this is the most efficient way to
accelerate particles (why put them into the cavities when there is no E
field present or it is aimed the wrong way?).

Here, I do not understand what you are saying.


* [example of ball in water]

This is a very bad example, unrelated to the issue at hand. With the
water traveling 2.000000 m/s, the ball can also travel 2.000000 m/s.
Indeed, due to thermal and density fluctuations in the water, it can
occasionally travel faster than 2.000000 m/s. And all bets are off for
turbulent flow in which a small enough ball could travel several times 2
m/s.... No analogous effects are observed for charged particles and EM
fields -- the EM field is NOT a fluid.

I have seen in River wood is floating. And I find Wood always floats
slower than the water.

Try an experiment Have a water flow and put some wood. You will see
the wood travels slower than the water carrying it. And never faster
than the water carrying it. I think its due to viscosity of water.

Bye
Sanny

Be Intelligent: http://www.GetClub.com/


Tom Roberts

On Sep 2, 4:28*pm, Errol wrote:
On Sep 2, 12:04*pm, "Y.Porat" wrote:

why ?? because mass inflates ??

Aren't you thinking of a balloon?

do you * *think you understand it *???!!!

No

i explained it many times

Try one more time with feeling

----------------------
ok one more time
with jsut one of my explaantion version:

suppose you ar e pushing your car
in order to ignite it while the accumulator is gone:
and you recrute even Ossien Bolt the new record champion
to push the car

at the beginning it moves slowly and you have no problem
to push it (except getting hernia (:-)
(you and Ossien are the* force makers* with its speed
the car is the accelerated object
now
as the speed of you and the car goes up
you have to run after it faster

now yo come to the possition that thecar
moves 9.96 secons per 100 meter

so
even Ossien cannot add any more force to push the car

because he lost touch with it !!

now suppose that it is not Ossen but the
** fastest
force messenger that moves only at the speed of light**
and nothing more
so
can you expect that *any * accelerated object will move faster than
light?

iow
c is the hightst speed that **any **force messenger* can run
2
it explaines as wel why it becomes more and more difficult
to add acceleration to an object
at the beginning
you alone is enough
later it is only Ossen that can do it
together with more others like him
at last
even if you add 100 rubnners like him
you wil get a poinjt in which even infinit number of Ossiens
willnot dothe job
ie
it is not that the mass is inflated
IT IS TH ENEED IN MORE AND MORE ENERGY**
TO ADD ACCCELERATION

SO
mathematically

it is not
F (or E) = gamma mc^2
BUT

F or E)/Gamma = mc^2

AND m *** REMAINS CONSTANT !!!
it does not' ' inflate '
and spares tons of mumblings about
relativistic or rest or inertial mass

***there is just one king of mass !!!**
and itr is conserved as in chemistry !!
and
energy is mass in motion
exactly in principle as in macrocosm !!


got it
or may be i will have to explain it another 100 tiles (:-)
ps
it is an old copyright explantion of mine !

TIA
Y.Porat
----------------------