Hi everybody! I have a doubt: Imagine that you have an only ionizer
machine in which you can change its high voltage generator by these
two options
a)A high voltage generator what consumes 1000 watts, and produces an
output of 10 Kvolts.(and theorically 0,1 amps)
b)A HV generator what consumes 10 watts and produces an output of 10
Kvolts
(and theorically 0,001 amps)
So supose a controlled enviroment on A and B cases: a pure gas, the
same gas, same gas temperature, same gas flux, so, ¿between these two
cases, how does ionization behave? I mean,¿does the machine ionize
more gas molecules with one or another high voltage generator
connected to it? ¿with which one?
I understand that ionization is defined essentially by ionization
energy -voltage- so ¿does really care the output power of high
voltage generator or only its voltage output to ionize correctly?

Camilo wrote:
Hi everybody! I have a doubt: Imagine that you have an only ionizer
machine in which you can change its high voltage generator by these
two options
a)A high voltage generator what consumes 1000 watts, and produces an
output of 10 Kvolts.(and theorically 0,1 amps)
b)A HV generator what consumes 10 watts and produces an output of 10
Kvolts
(and theorically 0,001 amps)
So supose a controlled enviroment on A and B cases: a pure gas, the
same gas, same gas temperature, same gas flux, so, ¿between these two
cases, how does ionization behave? I mean,¿does the machine ionize
more gas molecules with one or another high voltage generator
connected to it? ¿with which one?
I understand that ionization is defined essentially by ionization
energy -voltage- so ¿does really care the output power of high
voltage generator or only its voltage output to ionize correctly?

Hi Camilo,

The actual current drawn from the power supply is limited by the corona
generating section of the system. For a given configuration of
electrodes in the corona/ion generator, the current drawn from the HV
supply will be the same for either power supply as long as they both
supply the same output voltage.

So, even though the 1000 watt system COULD provide up to 100 mA of
current, it will actually only be supplying the much smaller amount
drawn by the corona/ion generator section. The 1000 watt supply could
power a much larger (100X) corona/ion generator than the 10 watt supply
can.

Bert
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let me see if I understood you. Amperage of the HV source acts as a
source of electrons (or lack of them when it´s a positive field ) so
for that reason is important amperage on the ionization process
performance, ¿ Am I right?
But anyway, taking up again the previous example ¿what happen with
Ionization if I have by A case a HV source with 100 Kvolts and by B
case the same 10Kvolts, both with 1000 watts of output?

Camilo wrote:
let me see if I understood you. Amperage of the HV source acts as a
source of electrons (or lack of them when it´s a positive field ) so
for that reason is important amperage on the ionization process
performance, ¿ Am I right?
But anyway, taking up again the previous example ¿what happen with
Ionization if I have by A case a HV source with 100 Kvolts and by B
case the same 10Kvolts, both with 1000 watts of output?

In an ionizer, the corona discharge (that generates the ions) will draw
a current that is function of the applied voltage. Once the applied
voltage is sufficient to generate a corona discharge, the current drawn
by a ionizer will be the same for a given applied voltage no matter if
you have a 10 watt supply or a 1000 watt supply. However, if you
increase the applied voltage to the same ionizer, the corona current
will increase very nonlinearly. Doubling the voltage will cause the
corona current to increase by significantly more than 2X. Assuming your
ionizer does not flash over at 100 kV, the current and power drawn from
the HV supply could be 100X larger (or more). Your results will vary as
a function of the ambient gas pressure, gas mixture, applied electrical
polarity (if DC), waveshape and frequency (if AC or pulsed), and the
geometry of your ionizer.

Bert
--
************************************************** *
We specialize in UNIQUE items! Coins shrunk by huge
magnetic fields, Lichtenberg Figures (our "Captured
Lightning") and out of print technical Books. Visit
Stoneridge Engineering at http://www.teslamania.com
************************************************** *

Ok, so you are ratifying what I understand about that: ionizing
ability depends of HV value .
Theory is ok, but I still doubt about something, if I build a HV
generator with 20 Kv for instance, powered by AA batteries (to make
it portable), with an ideal design, ¿Can I get a good amount of Ions
still? Theory say yes, but other thing is the practice, ¿¡what do you
think?!

Camilo wrote:
Ok, so you are ratifying what I understand about that: ionizing
ability depends of HV value .
Theory is ok, but I still doubt about something, if I build a HV
generator with 20 Kv for instance, powered by AA batteries (to make
it portable), with an ideal design, ¿Can I get a good amount of Ions
still? Theory say yes, but other thing is the practice, ¿¡what do you
think?!

Not enough information...

The efficiency of your HV converter and the ionizer will govern ion
output and usable operating time. Using high frequency HV will be more
effective than HV DC in ion generation. Using larger batteries will
provide longer running time without sacrificing portability...

Bert
--
************************************************** *
We specialize in UNIQUE items! Coins shrunk by huge
magnetic fields, Lichtenberg Figures (our "Captured
Lightning") and out of print technical Books. Visit
Stoneridge Engineering at http://www.teslamania.com
************************************************** *

"Using high frequency HV will be more effective than HV DC in ion
generation. "


Ok, ionization using high frequency HV is more effective, but if I
need for instance, a pure production of negative ions, I think that
high frequency HV is not good to perform that because It will
generate equally positive ions and negative ions (following HV
alternations, in positive cycles atoms become positive, and in
negative cycles they become negative)... ¿or what I don´t know about?
¿what am I wrong?(ionization process seems to be not so easy to
understand as It looks)

Camilo wrote:
"Using high frequency HV will be more effective than HV DC in ion
generation. "


Ok, ionization using high frequency HV is more effective, but if I
need for instance, a pure production of negative ions, I think that
high frequency HV is not good to perform that because It will
generate equally positive ions and negative ions (following HV
alternations, in positive cycles atoms become positive, and in
negative cycles they become negative)... ¿or what I don´t know about?
¿what am I wrong?(ionization process seems to be not so easy to
understand as It looks)

You are correct. Sorry, I didn't know that you were only looking for
negative ions for your application. In this case, you want either HVDC
or pulsed DC with negative polarity being applied to the active
electrodes (usually either pointed wire tips or small diameter wires).

If you are interested in making a small negative ion generator, you can
use a simple voltage multiplier circuit (made up of diodes and ceramic
capacitors) to develop a high DC voltage right off the AC power line.
Although these devices have relatively low output, they will generate
negative ions. Some examples:

http://www.electronickits.com/kit/co...isc/ck1103.htm
http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/QK57

Bert
--
************************************************** *
We specialize in UNIQUE items! Coins shrunk by huge
magnetic fields, Lichtenberg Figures (our "Captured
Lightning") and out of print technical Books. Visit
Stoneridge Engineering at http://www.teslamania.com
************************************************** *

well, so what you say about the best ability to ionize of high
frequency HV, does apply also to pulsed DC? I mean ¿Is It better to
ionize using high frequency pulses of HV than low frequency pulses of
HV (or DC HV)?

"Camilo" wrote
...

well, so what you say about the best ability to ionize of high
frequency HV, does apply also to pulsed DC? I mean ¿Is It better to
ionize using high frequency pulses of HV than low frequency pulses of
HV (or DC HV)?

"To ionize " has the two meanings.
1. Generate equally positive ions and negative ions.
2. Charging

Domestic ion generators charge water vapour (negatively or positively).
Such charged aggregates of water particles are called "heavy ions".
Domestic ion generators do not work in dry air.
S*