On Tue, 6 May 2008 23:26:30 -0700 (PDT), "Dr. HotSalt"
wrote:
On May 5, 4:40 pm, "Varekem" wrote:
(brevity snip)
[Varekem]
Sheesh Mark.So he isnt saying a real God exists, just that our lack of
growth makes us think there is one and creates the false illusion?
[Mark L. Fergerson]
No. I am saying that what he says is _partly_ correct, that humans
are capable only of observing that which we are capable of observing.
That would be a simple tautology except for the BGD (Brain Growth
Deficit)* issue; different humans are capable of observing different
amounts of reality due to their state of development in terms of how
accurately their DNA had the opportunity to be expressed as they grew
to adulthood, limited by in-utero and later nutrition and so on.
[Hammond]
YES, this a very commanding synopsis of the SPOG except
for the world "tautology" which has now been superseded in
this context by the term "Anthropic Principle" in modern
Physics, sort of the physics equivalent of WYSIWYG. Anyway,
congratulations, you're probably the only one on Usenet who
knows what the SPOG is about. Not an enviable position if
my experience is any example.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
I am saying that he is partly _incorrect_ not in that the above is
false (for it is obviously not) but in so far failing to analyze the
meaning of "perception" to see that it breaks finally down to physical
photon-driven interactions between fundamental particles.
George built the SPOG on a correspondence between the BGD and
Relativity* in that a fully developed human would "see" a "flat
psychometric* universe" such that nothing would be hidden beyond its
curvature analogous to how we cannot see into the past beyond a
certain point no matter how good a telescope we use; the Universe
simply is so big that some things are too far away for their light to
ever get here.
[Hammond]
Again congratulations in identifying "psychometric
curvature" (aka curvature of subjective spacetime) as the
cause of the "invisible world" (aka Heaven). The similarity
to an "event horizon" is heuristically good but more
accurately it is connected with the "dog whistle effect" in
that the word "curvature" is really physics jargon for a
"time dilation". This time dilation simply LOWERS the
visual spectrum cutoff frequency (aka PFF) to the point
where 20% of normal reality becomes so blurred as to become
TOTALLY INVISIBLE. Of PARTICULAR impact is the loss of
facial/personality recognition in other people, so that
their TRUE IDENTITY becomes invisible to the observer, and
in fact, this is the central phenominology of God,
Religion, and Psychology and the central factor in crime,
conflict, wars and every human conflict known to Man.
By the way, Hammond did not "build" the SPOG, I actually
bit by bit "uncovered" the SPOG. It is a pure by the book
discovery, I had no preconceived notions and no agenda when
I commenced this research 25 years ago.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
Since the causes of what happen around us are observable, and the
more you can observe, the more causes you can correlate with effects,
the more you will attribute to "God" when you cannot perceive but a
little of reality. A fully developed human brain would support a mind
without such limitations; it would "know the mind of 'God'".
[Hammond]
The above paragraph is exactly correct and is in fact a
totally scientifically correct explanation of "God". And
obviously you're one of the few people in the world who is
aware of it! I'm quite astounded at your mild mannered
ability.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
What he has not so far accepted (I think) is that _all_ physically
real entities are subject to similar general rules except that
inorganic entities are not subject to a developmental BGD but rather
to situational limitations in their range of perception. Get down to
the level of electrons and it's obvious that a free electron can
"perceive" much more than can one confined in an orbital; the latter
is completely "blind" to photons that do not correspond to allowed
transitions. Of course electrons can change their situation so there
is no direct analog of "growth" for them, but they are extremely
simple systems- something as complex as a human brain is time-
direction-limited and cannot be "ungrown" from a given point then
"regrown" with more nutrients etc. to improve their functionality.
[Hammond]
All LIVING THINGS (DNA based life) have a GROWTH DEFICIT!
The only exception to this are perhaps viruses, where the
individual atoms can be counted.
But certainly all multicellular animals have a growth
deficit, and any animal with a "brain" has a "brain growth
deficit" and is therefore subject to "God".
The "God" of Man is simply a 100% fully grown man. On
the other had the God of a horse is a fully grown horse,
same for a frog or an alligator. Since the perceptual
effect is SIMILAR in a Man, cat, dog, horse etc., we simply
call this universal perceptual effect of perceiving animals,
"GOD". Your cat or dog is aware that there is a "God".
On the other hand, to say that an "electron" "perceives"
anything is a stretch in my opinion. Certainly an electron
cannot perceive a tree, or anything like reality as we know
it. The 3,500 year old God of the Bible, is an
ANTHROPOMORPHIC GOD, and has the bodily form of a man, and
the MIND OF A MAN. The anthropomorphic God of the Bible has
been the workhorse of religion for thousands of years, still
is, and will be for the duration. HE can never be
disproved, or refuted especially after the advent of a SPOG,
and regardless of future scientific developments.
I know that Einstein himself did not believe in an
anthropomorphic God, however, Einstein was WRONG. And it is
a complete IRONY that the world's first scientific proof
that there IS an anthropomorphic God rests squarely on
Einstein's discovery of the theory of General Relativity.
Just goes to show that what you say and what you do can be
two far different things, especially if you are Einstein
facing the biggest wave of Anti-Semitism in history!
[Mark L. Fergerson]
Hence the SPOG is not only congruent with Relativity but Quantum
Mechanics as well; if George will recognize and develop the latter
congruence fully he will have done what Einstein tried and failed to
do; unite Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. This will make it simply
impossible for an educated person to reject the SPOG in part or in
whole.
[Hammond]
Hold on a minute Mark. Strictly speaking the SPOG is a
"SEMICLASSICAL THEORY". IOW, the SPOG clearly proves that
"God and the invisible world- Heaven" are caused by a
"gravitational curvature of subjective spacetime", but the
ORIGIN of the Gravity cannot be Classical. There is no
classical gravity to speak of in the human brain, and it
can't be terrestrial gravity either because that is a
constant, while the size of God and Heaven decreases
inversely with the Secular Trend. So WHERE IS THE GRAVITY?
The only obvious answer to that, the prime candidate, is
"Quantum Gravity" in the brain, specifically it appears,
Penrose's Quantum Brain Gravity. According to Penrose, it
is quantum Gravity which collapses the wave function in all
processes, including brain function. So, it APPEARS that de
facto, that this quantum gravity QM collapse mechanism is
ultimately what controls brain growth itself, and that is
HOW we end up with a "classical gravitational curvature" in
human subjective spacetime, a.k.a. "God".
NOTE, however, that the proof of the SPOG does NOT depend
on this hypothesis, the proof of the SPOG is an EXPERIMENTAL
FACT, regardless of the mechanism underlying it, therefore
the proof of God is an irrefutable experimental fact
likewise.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
It is my suspicion that George resists my points due to his strong
orthodox Christian upbringing which places Humanity at the apex of
Creation,
[Hammond]
Na, I was born an atheist, and remained an atheist up
until the time that I accidentally stumbled across the
scientific proof of God when I was 55 years of age in 1997.
I had no religious beliefs whatsoever. I was searching
for the Structural Model of Personality when I ACCIDENTALLY
discovered the SPOG, and suddenly realized that there WAS a
"God" and what it was, and what religion was actually
talking about behind all that metaphorical mumbo jumbo!
[Mark L. Fergerson]
and completely discounts the possibility of other
sentiences.
[Hammond]
Na, as I stated above all living things with a brain are
certainly "sentient" to some degree, especially the higher
quadrupeds. However, they do NOT see the same world or
"reality" that Man does. Therefore, they are only vaguely
aware of the God of Man. They are beasts of a "lesser God"
so to speak.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
It is this sort of thinking that informs the "observer
effect" in the infamous Schroedinger's Cat gedankenexperiment- that
only a human can "observe" the outcome of an event. Yet when pressed,
a proponent of that view will admit that an observer isolated in a
laboratory with the apparatus CANNOT "collapse the waveform" for the
universe exterior to the lab until he tells someone outside, WHICH IS
BLATANTLY RIDICULOUS. AN OBSERVER IS AN OBSERVER, BE THEY HUMAN, CAT,
OR A SINGLE ORBITAL ELECTRON IN THE RADIATION DETECTOR APPARATUS.
[Hammond]
I totally disagree with "Pantheism". Classically
speaking God is an MAN. There IS NO such thing as a
non-human "observer" in Physics. This is proven by the fact
that the mere existence of reality can only be confirmed by
a HUMAN observer. If all humans died tomorrow, by physics
definition, nothing would exist! On the other hand, if all
elephants died tomorrow, we'd hardly notice the difference!
Elephants do NOT "create the existence of reality", only Man
does.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
OTOH one could argue that the perceptions of an electron are simply
not relevant to any sort of "God" concept humans would be interested
in,
[Hammond]
I have to agree with that most emphatically.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
but I point out that the SPOG is a PHYSICAL theory which CANNOT
afford to ignore the physics it is rooted in.
[Hammond]
That on the other hand is a valid point.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
It is my contention that
George is IGNORING one of the major roots of the SPOG. Without it the
SPOG is fatally incomplete just as current physics is and for the
exact same reasons; the elaborate developments of Relativity and
Quantum mechanics separately describe beautifully and deeply many,
many aspects of reality; but until they are combined successfully
NEITHER IS ADEQUATE ON ITS OWN for there are many phenomena each
CANNOT ALONE describe or predict. Hence the SPOG is HOBBLED from
explaining and predicting many phenomena of the human brain and mind
until George buckles down to COMPLETING the SPOG by FULLY quantizing
it.
[Hammond]
As I have pointed out above, the "gravity" that is
causing God is believed to be quantum gravity in the brain.
So OBVIOUSLY, when the as yet undiscovered theory of Quantum
Gravity is finally discovered, we will have in addition to
the "classical" explanation of God; a "quantum" explanation
of God.
However, the discovery of the quantum theory of gravity
could be a hundred years away, there isn't even a viable
candidate for such a theory at the time of this writing. No
one knows what it is?
Therefore there is no way that the SPOG can be
"quantized" at the present time. But Science is working on
QG night and day, believe me!
[Mark L. Fergerson]
I will point out that he has started to by realizing that the
ancients had already split the idea into what I called eigengods
except they called them members of a pantheon. Now George must reach
down into the guts of the SPOG and see that it must ALL be similarly
quantized.
[Hammond]
I want to congratulate you for coining a very useful and
historically important term, namely:
"EIGENGODS"
(Mark Fergerson, 5-7- 2008)
I intend to use your new terminology in my book and
writings, and will give you full credit for coining the
term! Boy, that's a duzy! The SPOG after all proves that
all of the Egypto-Greco-Roman gods are in fact "Eigengods",
being 2nd order eigenvectors of Psychometry, cubically
correlated btw. In fact, ALL "demigods" in world religion
anywhere, are either 1st or 2nd order eigenvectors, and
therefore EIGENGODS ! You are assured of leaving your
calling card to history with that piece of linguistic
invention!
Finally of course, the supreme Deity, the anthropomorphic
God most accessibly described in the Christian Bible is a
"Supreme-Eigengod", since there is only ONE EIGENVECTOR at
the top of the factor hierarchy- at the 4th order, which is
where all factor analysis in Psychometry come to a halt.
[Mark L. Fergerson]
(There is also the possibility that George thinks that what I write
may simply be elaborate mockery. However I say let what I write stand
on its own merit. I have no stake one way or the other save this;
[Hammond]
Frankly Mark, at this point I consider you about the only
person on the Usenet who has ever said anything constructive
about the SPOG! I am impressed that your communications are
NOT, in fact, mockery!
[Mark L. Fergerson]
I believe that if the SPOG becomes generally known and accepted, a large
proportion of the population will be relieved of the usual anxiety and
guilt over their intellectual status which gives religions the control
used to manipulate them into becoming tools of "smarter" people
leading to wars and mass deaths.)
[Hammond]
That is of course the hope that is driving me, and
certainly the dream that was driving all of our best
scientists, including Einstein.
Particularly important at the present is the conflict
between jihadist Islam and Christianity. Frankly I'd like
to be a fly on the wall when Osama Bin Ladin hears that a
Christian physicist in the U.S.A. has discovered the world's
first scientific proof of God. That ought to put the fear
of God into him if nothing else does!
[Mark L. Fergerson]
Again I emphasize that this will make the SPOG completely
INDISPUTABLE ON ANY BASIS TO AN EDUCATED PERSON.
[Hammond]
The SPOG is in fact ALREADY indisputable to educated
people. Of course that depends on what you mean by
"educated". It may be that "understanding the SPOG" has
become a new litmus test for being "educated", sort of like
understanding Einstein's theory was in the old days. Poker's
going up in academia I guess!
[Mark L. Fergerson]
At one time I had suggested that George break the SPOG's components
down into a set of "baby steps" that an uneducated person could follow
from one to the next so that any person who could read would be led
inexorably to accept the SPOG but George seems to think this to be
unnecessary. I suggested it as a way to bypass "authoritative"
arguments against the SPOG by educated persons with an agenda to
defend; currently to grok the SPOG one must be at least passingly
familiar with many separate disciplines from General Relativity to
neurophysiology. Most people simply glaze over at detailed
descriptions and accept the pronouncements of "authorities", and
perhaps George is right; most people would simply glaze over at the
prospect of even a single volume version of "baby stepped SPOG".
* These and other terms' relevance to the SPOG are better explained by
George; I spell them out just for clarity in this limited context.
Mark L. Fergerson
[Hammond]
I am preparing a definitive book on the SPOG entitled:
The
Scientific
Proof of God
When I'll get it finished heaven only knows. I've made a
number of false starts already and have virtually all of the
material at my fingertips, but the choice of style, content,
arrangement, illustrations etc. are still plaguing me.
Meanwhile, I want to thank you personally for your bold
and extremely encouraging post. Rational and competent
discussion of this subject on Usenet is extremely rare as
you know.
George Hammond
=====================================
SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
mirror site:
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GOD=G_uv (a folk song on mp3)
http://interrobang.jwgh.org/songs/hammond.mp3
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