On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:30:56 -0700 (PDT), Immortalist
wrote:
[Hammond]
* *You have FAILED to distinguish between two fundamentally
DIFFERENT cases:
CASE 1: *
* *If I turn my back and look the other way,
* *does the Moon still exist?
* * * * * (correct answer, YES)
CASE 2:
* *If the human race never existed or became
* *totally EXTINCT, would the Moon "exist".
* * * *(correct answer, NO)
[Immortalist]
Case two depends upon how you are defining "exist"
[Hammond]
* *NO KIDDING, Sherlock! *Can't you get it through your head
that "exist" is, and ONLY is, absolutely defined as: *"A
human opinion based on sensory perception". *There is no
OTHER definition of the word "exists". *Ergo, if there are
no humans, then there is no "existence" of anything.
snip
[Immortalist, citation]
...the world we see in conscious experience is not the real world
itself, but merely a miniature virtual-reality replica of that world
in an internal representation. Representationalism is also known (in
psychology) as Indirect Perception, and (in philosophy) as Indirect
Realism, or Epistemological Dualism.
[Hammond]
I agree completely. I am very grateful that you find no
quarrel with this commonly accepted fact.
snip cited evidence
snip
[Immortalist]
"…how can we know that the universe wasn't created a few minutes ago?"
--Bertrand Russell
[Hammond]
This is the well known OMPHALOS THEORY which is a
perennial subject of discussion and was seriously
investigate by Russell, although it is originally due to
Gosse.
Incidentally the Opthalmos theory was discussed
extensively on ARK a few years ago.
[Immortalist, citation]
...suppose the universe were suddenly created five minutes ago,
complete with memories, historical and geological records, and so
forth. That is, at the moment of creation, the universe would have all
the evidence that it was billions of years old already "packed in."
How could it ever be known that the creation of the universe did not
occur five minutes ago?
[Hammond]
It turns out we have had this conversation before, but I
don't think you recognized the significance of it at the
time..... check out this post, by you to ARK, from November
2007:
======2007 post by Immortalist===========
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:13:30 -0800, Immortalist wrote:
-???? ???? ?????-
-???? ???? ?????-
Or maybe the world was created 5 minutes ago.
The omphalos hypothesis was named after the title of an 1857 book,
Omphalos by Philip Henry Gosse, in which Gosse argued that in order
for the world to be "functional", God must have created the Earth with
mountains and canyons, trees with growth rings, Adam and Eve with
hair, fingernails, and navels (omthalmos is Greek for "navel"), and
that therefore no evidence that we can see of the presumed age of the
earth and universe can be taken as reliable.
[Hammond, Nov. 2007]
The Omphalos Theory is in fact correct, but the Universe
was not created "5 minutes ago" it was actually created
100,000 years ago WHEN our species (Homo Sapiens sapiens)
came into existence.
snip
=========end 2007 Immortalist post================
[Hammond]
The Omphalos Theory cannot be disproved, as Russell
authoritatively demonstrated many years ago.
However as Wittgenstein pointed out, the reason it is not
a plausible theory is simply that there is no compelling
reason for it, and it does not yield any tangible physical
result.
Interestingly however, the Omphalos Theory does now have
a compelling plausible scientific reason; namely, that
Hammond has discovered that the "internal representational
model of reality" that you discussed above, is ACTUALLY
RELATIVISTICALLY CURVED!!!, and that this scientifically
measurable fact completely explains the historical
phenomenon of "God". So what we see now, is that the
appearance of Man (our species, Homo Sapiens sapiens)
200,000 years ago WAS actually an "Omphalos Creation"
because that is when "existence" i.e. "reality" actually
"suddenly" came into being. This is when the "internal
model" was created, and thus "human reality" itself was
born. Thus the Genesis Creation was actually an "Omphalos
Creation" that took place 200,000 years ago.
In addition to that of course, the discovery of the
significance of the Anthropic Principle in modern science,
has now brought to the fore the fundamental significance of
the "Representationalism" you described above. The reason
the Universe appears as it does, is because an "Omphalos
Creation" took place 200,000 years ago!
What Physics fails to distinguish between is the Omphalos
Creation and the Big Bang creation. the former is the
creation of reality itself, while the latter is the creation
of physical structure within that reality. Incidentally,
since the Omphalos Creation created time itself, the
Omphalos (Biblical) creation"predates" the Big Bang, even
though the Big Bang is 13 billion years old!
snip citation of Omphalos Theory by Miller
snip citation of Omphalos Theory by Wittgenstein
[Hammond]
Incidentally, your contribution to this discussion has
been far superior to anything any one else has contributed,
even PhD physicists have failed miserably to comprehend the
basic scientific issues, whereas you have apparently
digested them quite easily.
All of this points out to me the key position of the
Philosophy Department in this development (I assume you are
posting from alt.philosophy)
Sooner or later there is going to be a head on collision
between Science and Religion over this discovery, and at
that time the Philosophy Department is going to be called on
to mediate the problem. And from the looks of things, you
seem to be way out in front of the crowd. Congratulations.
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