On 23 apr, 08:34, George Hammond wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:54:58 GMT, George Hammond

wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:09:01 +0100, "Andy F."
wrote:

[Andy F.]
There's a human opinion based on sensory perception that the universe has
been around for billions of years.

[Hammond]
* *There is overwhelming evidence based on scientific
deduction that *IF* a person existed a billion years ago,
then he would have indeed observed the Universe to exist. *I
throughly agree with that and anybody who doesn't is
certifiably either crazy or incompetent.

[Andy F.]
This means the universe existed before
humans did.

[Hammond]
WRONG, DEAD WRONG ANDY.

1) *The "existence", of anything, depends entirely on the
* * * sensory perception of Man. *There IS NO definition
* * * of the word "existence" that is independent of the
* * * action of a HUMAN observer.
* * * * *Proof: *If all men died tomorrow at 9am, there
* * * would no longer be any way to ascertain at 9:01am
* * * if ANYTHING whatsoever "existed". *The word
* * * "existence" has no meaning whatsoever
* * * without the existence of human beings.

2) * But what your statement above says, is that
* * * circumstantial evidence indicates (indeed
* * * conclusively) that *IF* a human observer existed
* * * a billion years ago, then he "would have" observed
* * * that the Universe "existed". *And I thoroughly
* * * agree with that statement.

3) * However, in point of fact, no *such human observer
* * * did exist a billion years ago, therefore, by paragraph
* * * 1 above, the Universe actually did *NOT* "exist"
* * * a billion years ago.... even though it "would have"
* * * if anybody was around to see it.

[Andy F.]
So it's not possible for humans to have created the universe.

[Hammond]
Wrong again.
* *The above proof demonstrates conclusively that Man
"caused" the Universe to come into "existence" since ONLY A
HUMAN can confirm that anything "exists".
* *In short, "existence" is a PROPERTY of the human mind. No
people, no existence, of anything!
=====================================
* * *SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD WEBSITE
*http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god
* *mirror site:
*http://proof-of-god.freewebsitehosting.com
* * * GOD=G_uv * (a folk song on mp3)
*http://interrobang.jwgh.org/songs/hammond.mp3
=====================================

I understand your phlosophy but I expect about everybody to disagree
with you :-)

If (human) brains did not exist than indeed no spiritual things would
exist, and indeed existence is a spiritual thing. You cannnot observe
existence:-)

However material existence is independent of spiritual existence, and
what we mean if we talk about the existence of material things, is
dependend - not on the experiences of (human) brains at the time the
material did or did not exist, but on the experiences of (human)
brains NOW.

So the universe DID exist a biilion years ago because we can
experience electro magnetic waves coming from a billion lightyears
away right NOW!

On the other hand a caveman might have painted both the inside and the
outside of his cave 30.000 years ago, we only experience the paintings
on the inside NOW. Thus to us, the outside paintings NEVER existed :-)

You general problem being that you neglecting the temporal difference
between the experience that leads to the conclusion "existence" and
the time we attribute to that existence.
Things ALWAYS exist in the past, because the speed of experience is
always finit.

Tests seems to point out that what we call "Now" is about 0,3 seconds
ago when we say it. In order to come any closer we need to anticipate,
and start saying "NOW" about 0,3 seconds before we expect the event to
happen.

Your opening post existed on april 21, because I experience it's date
on Googl NOW

Peter van Velzen
April 23, 2008
Amstelveen
The Netherlands